For those that pray

Originally posted by twhitehead
Of course you will. You have to. Its a catch 22 for you.
If you claim that prayer is efficacious, then that would contradict your belief that the existence of God can not be proven. At best, you must believe that prayer is only efficacious when either nobody is watching, or only up to the point that it is indistinguishable from coincidence predicted by r swering remains undetectable, thus maintaining the all important need for faith without reason.

Au contraire.

I'll pass merely because you don't actually give a damn whether prayer is real or not. You just assume it isn't and go from there, which really makes your post asking about it just so much mental masturbation.

As such, you'll forgive me if I pass on responding and leave you to it.

Edit: Your argument here is @$#&%*#&, by the way.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Edit: Your argument here is @$#&%*#&, by the way.

So you say, but as always you are unwilling to give any actual argument to support your claims.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Au contraire.

I'll pass merely because you don't actually give a damn whether prayer is real or not. You just assume it isn't and go from there, which really makes your post asking about it just so much mental masturbation.

As such, you'll forgive me if I pass on responding and leave you to it.

Edit: Your argument here is @$#&%*#&, by the way.

Whether we give a damn or not is irrelevant.

If prayer worked, we would find that things happened more often when prayed for than when not prayed for. Two rigorous meta-analyses have been given, one found no effect and the other was inconclusive either way. The balance of evidence is thus that there is no benefit from prayer. This is irrespective of what you or I want.

If you really do believe that prayer works, then as has been pointed out, using it to pray for the health of a family member or a change of character in someone you dislike is at best selfish and petty and I would hope that you are above that and think bigger, praying for the health and character of all humanity.

--- Penguin.

If prayer worked, we would find that things happened more often when prayed for than when not prayed for.

You are assuming that God's answer is always YES about everything ?

You spent exactly HOW much time visiting circles of places where people do pray to collect testimonials from them concerning God's responses to their prayer ?

No time spent, I bet. Why you stay clear of such gatherings probably.
Why should we come to YOU to report then all responses to prayer ?
Do I owe it to you to inform you of each experience of prayer to God and its result ?

And what about God being able to do above what we ask or think ?

"But to Him who is able to do super abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us ..." (Eph. 3:20)

Here is a case of God not providing exactly what you asked but something above what you asked.

Here also is a case of the loving Father granting each child maybe not what he or she asked for but what he or she NEEDED.

Oh by the way, we Christians sometimes fail to recognize answer to prayers. Sometimes the timing has caused us to forget the request that was made. Some of these prayers may go not only unremembered but worse unthanked for.

God is faithful.
God is not the great vending machine in the sky that automatically answers every fickle request of what I want. Sometime He provides what I needed.

Sometimes we prayed for example, that God would remove a big rock from a stream down which our boat was rowing. Instead of removing the rock His way was to raise the water level so that the boat floated OVER the obstacle.

So God's way of answering man's prayers is not always according to typical human concept.

Another problem:

We prayers do not always KNOW for what we should pray. Sometimes a prayer is not a specific request. It may be simply calling out to God or groaning. These prayers are not in vain. And God answers them with the best answer of all - MORE OF HIMSELF in our lives.

The Holy Spirit also HELPS the prayer who may be so perplexed he does not know exactly HOW or FOR WHAT he should pray.

" ... in like manner the Spirit also joins in to help us in our weaknesses, for we do not know for what we should pray as is fitting, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Romans 8:26)

Prayers uttered which issue from a perplexed believer are not unanswered prayers or vain prayers. On the contrary. Prayers from perplexity or not knowing exactly what we need tend to drive us deeper into Christ. They bring our believing roots more deeply rooted in God.

And since God's over all purpose is to add Himself into our personality, these prayers are quite important. The answer is more of God in our being, more of Christ in our being, and a more intimate walk with the Holy Spirit.

I don't know how your statisticians want to tally up those answered prayers. As far is the world is concerned they are meaningly because the world thinks the addition of God into people's lives is of no use.

You are building up something completely different from what God is building up.

The world is passing away but he who does the will of God abides forever/ So why should worldly people even consider it significant that prayers, the answer to which, is that God dispenses more of Himself into the prayer, is significant ?

Two rigorous meta-analyses have been given, one found no effect and the other was inconclusive either way. The balance of evidence is thus that there is no benefit from prayer. This is irrespective of what you or I want.

You put your trust in that nonsense if you wish.

Your analysis is stupid in its underlying assumptions about prayer.
Let's come back to the teaching of Jesus Christ on prayer.

According to Christ, prayer rather pleasing to God is that which results in Him giving and dispensing more of His Holy Spirit into man's personality.

"If you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father who is from heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" (Luke 11:13)

According to this word on prayer from Jesus, the "good thing" which God loves to grant to prayer is the Holy Spirit.

Ie. You ask God for a new house. Maybe God grants you that. But maybe He grants you what you really need in His kingdom - more saturation with the Holy Spirit.

Successful prayer then according to Christ's evaluation results in God giving the Holy Spirit.

Every item man requests may not be granted. How about one is praying out of his envy or lust ? God grants her transformation by giving the Holy Spirit.

Your science meta-analysis couldn't care less about those prayers. They don't do anything for your dying world. But they are useful for the building of the eternal kingdom of Christ.

Then again God is exceedingly practical about items which we really need. I said need not just want.

I need no meta analysis to inform me that needs of employment, shelter, funds, housing, food may be granted by the Father for prayer.

Suppose some bible school soccer team prays that they win some soccer game against another bible school soccer team ? This has happened because people can be immature spiritually.

So both teams pray for victory. Team from Bible School A looses and team from Bible School B wins. Just maybe God's priorities were not at all with anyone "winning". Suppose the Almighty doesn't care who won the soccer game.

Yet in the finish, maybe some Christian students saw the beauty of Christ's humility in losing. And others gained Christ's thankfulness in the happiness of winning.

To your analysts there is no way to count how the prayer was answered. To them who ever won got the answer. This is wise in their worldly eyes but foolish in the eyes of the kingdom of God.

God's priorities were with "winning" more of the nature of Christ. For His eternal purpose is that we be conformed to the image of His Son that He be the Firstborn among many brothers.

So I place no faith whatsoever in your meta analysis attemptiong to educate me on how God answers prayer.

If you really do believe that prayer works, then as has been pointed out, using it to pray for the health of a family member or a change of character in someone you dislike is at best selfish and petty and I would hope that you are above that and think bigger, praying for the health and character of all humanity.

Prayer can be a request that someone change.
But sometimes God may CHANGE YOU.
Maybe the problem is with the prayer.

I prayed for a boss who was once hassling me and putting me on probation.

" Lord Jesus, humble him Lord. Humble that boss Lord."

But the more I prayed it seemed the more God humbled me.
Then you sometimes get the realization.
The real answer to the real need is that you need more Christ in your life.

Actually, Christ is the all-inclusive solution to all of man's problems.

Watchman Nee said that it is not that we do not have enough Christ. Rather it is that we have too many things other than Christ.

So your analysis is of zero help to me. Its entire frame of reference is seen through the eyes of the world and not through the eyes of the kingdom of God.

I have seen God respond to the need for a home by leading me exactly to the physical address of the future dwelling.

At other times His answer will be just His presence and assurance that He will not leave of forsake me. I consider both as answers to prayer. The second case is often the more effective and valuable answer.

By the way. In closing, the second coming of Christ is in answer to prayer too. So we are going to pray the Lord back to this earth. And there is nothing the unbelievers can do about it. We know our request is heard and will be answered because it is according to the will of God.

Originally posted by sonship

If prayer worked, we would find that things happened more often when prayed for than when not prayed for.

You are assuming that God's answer is always YES about everything ?

You spent exactly HOW much time visiting circles of places where people do pray to collect testimonials from them concerning God's responses to their prayer ?
...[text shortened]... and will be answered because it is according to the will of God.

"You are assuming that God's answer is always YES about everything ? "


this was not claimed at all and is a rather silly statement. even if god only said yes to 5% of prayers for 'x' to happen. studies would show that christians have a 5% higher chance of 'x' happening than non christians. as studies have shown this is not the case, we know prayers dont work.

if christians were having their prayers answered wouldnt we see a big difference between say japan and the u.s. when it comes to miraculous, odds beating hospital survival stories? or more lost children found?

somebody go and tell the billion christians in africa that prayers come true.

Originally posted by Penguin
Whether we give a damn or not is irrelevant.

Believe it or not, but I'm not talking about you.

I'm talking about twhitehead. It's obvious he doesn't give a damn whether prayer works or not, because he just assumes it doesn't. This makes his questions about the efficacy of prayer rather suspect. I stopped playing his little trolling games a while back, so that's why I'm not participating in his little private amusement park.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
somebody go and tell the billion christians in africa that prayers come true.

Prayer is not primarily about 'goal-oriented success'.

It's about connecting with God.

I'm guessing that's why the atheists here are having such a hard time understanding it.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I'm talking about twhitehead. It's obvious he doesn't give a damn whether prayer works or not, because he just assumes it doesn't. This makes his questions about the efficacy of prayer rather suspect.

No, actually, it doesn't. My questions are asked with the full disclosure that I assume that prayer doesn't work. At no point do I pretend otherwise. My questions are still perfectly valid. That you wish to attack me personally rather than address the questions only goes to show that you are uncomfortable answering them for some reason.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Prayer is not primarily about 'goal-oriented success'.

It's about connecting with God.

I'm guessing that's why the atheists here are having such a hard time understanding it.

If you read the OP of this thread, does it look like and attempt at 'connecting with God'? Do you get why us atheists have such a hard time understanding it?
Even worse, when I ask questions for clarification, you refuse to answer, yet at the same time here you are criticizing us for not understanding.

this was not claimed at all and is a rather silly statement. even if god only said yes to 5% of prayers for 'x' to happen. studies would show that christians have a 5% higher chance of 'x' happening than non christians. as studies have shown this is not the case, we know prayers dont work.

You entire approach to this is silly.
What is the bottom line then of this thread - For those that pray?
It seems that it is praying to God is a not profitable matter which we would be better to abandon.

You think you have some statistics lined up to encourage us not to pray.
This is truly ridiculous.
I didn't go out and take a pole or a survey when the need to reach out to God came upon me. And I can hardly benefit from your study now some 40 plus years latter.

Of course with faith there is often a little residue possibilty "Well maybe it was just a coincidence."

When Jesus presented Himself after the resurrection the New Testament still says that some doubted.

"And the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus directed them. And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him , though some doubted." (Matt. 28:16)

When God acts in time there is still the possibility that witnesses will have doubt. "Was that REALLY God answering my prayers? Maybe that was just a coincidence."

Many of us who practice prayer are aware of this endless propensity of fallen man to suspect God did nothing. The normal Christian life is neither overly superstitious that everything is responded just as we ask, on one extreme, or surmising that nothing He responded to.

Even Jesus the Son of God, as a man, cried out "My God, Why have You forsaken Me?

Your statistics arguing that coincidence or lucky probability is all that is in play in prayer is not at all convincing given history and personal experience.

if christians were having their prayers answered wouldnt we see a big difference between say japan and the u.s. when it comes to miraculous, odds beating hospital survival stories?

China was a country totally void of the Christian experience (or for the far greater part). Men of God prayed and prayed for that land. Men like Hudsen Taylor fasted and prayed for such a vast land of people that they would come to know the Gospel of Jesus.

A man went to the office of Hudsen Taylor to be an evangelist in China. He told the secratary to tell him to wait for 20 minutes. So the inquirer waited. Then he asked again. And the same answer came - "Tell him to wait for 20 minutes." So he waited again. This was repeated a number of times until the prospective preacher left in impatience.

Hudsen Taylor remarked to the secratary that if the man could not wait longer there was no way he could be a Christian evangelist in China. That is because he may live there ten years before any Chinese person would even listen to him talk about Jesus Christ.

Today we believe those years of prayers were answered and the Gospel of Christ thrives with millions of Chinese. In fact the most enfluential Christian workers on my life have been from Mainland China.

Prayers for the Middle East and Israel are also being answered. We simply have no need for your doubt.

If you don't want to pray, you go ahead and don't pray.
Some of us will continue in prayers for God's moving and working in the earth according to His will.

or more lost children found?

somebody go and tell the billion christians in africa that prayers come true.

I'll tell Africans or Americans too that God answers prayers.
And I recently heard the riveting testimony of this lost African child, trained as a terrorist who is now going through the earth explaining that God is faithful and answers prayers.

It is hard to fathom how silly your attitude is and what a total waste of a life you have of encouraging people that prayer is not profitable. Petty dying liars.

Meanwhile our God tells us "Despise not the day of small things". A few definite answers to prayer in less spectacular numbers than you think should be is not to be despised by us who notice God's faithfulness.

I would much rather spend my life learning to petition God effectively and teaching others than doing what you are doing.

We're praying that God go to the root of man's problem, bringing in His kingdom and not just apply bandaids on your rotting world.

Originally posted by sonship
The stat keepers here evangelizing people not to pray, go learn what this means -

[b]'Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. And all these things will be added to you."

While you loud and proud doubters are gathering your statistics on "things" many of us are praying to God to seek FIRST His kingdom and His righteousness. All that we need in addition will come as a by-product.[/b]

I for one did not evangelize anyone not to pray. I asked why people claim that prayer works, yet act as if it doesn't. I also asked a few relevant questions about prayer which nobody seems willing to address.
Why would anyone follow your advice to seek anything when a) you cant answer basic questions about prayer and b) there is good scientific data that more or less contradicts your claims about prayer.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Prayer is not primarily about 'goal-oriented success'.

It's about connecting with God.

I'm guessing that's why the atheists here are having such a hard time understanding it.

I think you need to convince your fellow Christians first. At least one poster in this thread first attempted to demonstrated that prayers are in fact answered (ie goal oriented).