It has been asserted that Christ is not a created entity, could those who profess this perspective please explain the following scripture, Collossians 1:15, made with reference to Jesus Christ,
(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation
Its has been asserted that this is made with reference to Jesus pre-eminence, this raises some serious questions,
1. The term first-born is used in the Bible until this point almost thirty times (the first born of Pharaoh referring to Pharaohs son etc), why in all other instances is it a reference to progeny but here it is a reference to something else.
2. If as the verse indicates that Christ is of the creation, how are we to understand that he was not created?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis thread is irrelevant, irrelevancies will be ignored.
It has been asserted that Christ is not a created entity, could those who profess this perspective please explain the following scripture, Collossians 1:15, made with reference to Jesus Christ,
(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation
Its has been asserted that this is made with reference to Jesus p ...[text shortened]... erse indicates that Christ is of the creation, how are we to understand that he was not created?
Originally posted by divegeesterThe thread is relevant, you, suzzianne, jaywill and r j hinds claim that Jesus is God, you will explain the scripture in view of the fact that it states that Jesus was a created entity.
This thread is irrelevant, irrelevancies will be ignored.
Col 1:15
"Some people have tried to use this term "firstborn" to argue that Jesus was a created being and not the Creator. That is not true. "Firstborn" is used here in the sense of first in importance (see Rom 8:29). This is verified by the context of this verse (see Col 1:18) where Paul said Jesus was to have the preeminence in all things.
The Greek term for "first created" is "PROTOKTISIS," whereas the Greek word for "firstborn," used here, is "PROTOTOKOS." These are two entirely different words. It is significant that in this verse, the Apostle Paul deliberately avoided using the Greek term for "first created" and instead chose the Greek word for "firstborn." Jesus "is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Col 1:17).
In Bible days, the Jews understood the term "firstborn" to refer to position and rank. In other words, the firstborn (according to Jewish custom) was his father's heir. All that his father possessed was his. This term signifies that the Son is the "appointed heir of all things" (Heb 1:2). Taken in context, this passage clearly reveals that all things in heaven and earth were created by the Son and for the Son (Col 1:16-17). By virtue of this fact, the Son stands as Ruler, Creator, and Firstborn."
From http://www.awmi.net
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt does not state this.
The thread is relevant, you, suzzianne, jaywill and r j hinds claim that Jesus is God, you will explain the scripture in view of the fact that it states that Jesus was a created entity.
Show some discernment, if for no one else's sake but your own.
Originally posted by Suzianneyou were not asked what the term for first born is, what you were actually asked was, is Jesus or is he not part of creation for Paul uses the term, firstborn OF all creation indicating that it would seem that Jesus is OF the creation, this is what you were actually asked, so we shall ask you again and see if you can answer it this time,
Col 1:15
"Some people have tried to use this term "firstborn" to argue that Jesus was a created being and not the Creator. That is not true. "Firstborn" is used here in the sense of first in importance (see Rom 8:29). This is verified by the context of this verse (see Col 1:18) where Paul said Jesus was to have the preeminence in all things.
The Greek ...[text shortened]... rtue of this fact, the Son stands as Ruler, Creator, and Firstborn."
From http://www.awmi.net
does the term first-born of all creation indicate that Jesus is part of the creation as indicated by the term, first-born OF all creation, that is a part of the creation.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis is all irrelevant.
The thread is relevant, you, suzzianne, jaywill and r j hinds claim that Jesus is God, you will explain the scripture in view of the fact that it states that Jesus was a created entity.
Please start a thread about why some spurious Egyptian hieroglyph proves that one of your gods is an angel.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI agree with suzianne. Obviously, He is not created because He created all things that was made from the beginning.
you were not asked what the term for first born is, what you were actually asked was, is Jesus or is he not part of creation for Paul uses the term, firstborn OF all creation indicating that it would seem that Jesus is OF the creation, this is what you were actually asked, so we shall ask you again and see if you can answer it this time,
does the ...[text shortened]... e creation as indicated by the term, first-born OF all creation, that is a part of the creation.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
(John 1:1-3 NKJV)
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:16-18 NKJV)
Obviously, the Creator and Maker of all things is exempted from the things that were created and made.
Originally posted by RJHindsYou were not asked about John 1:1, you were asked about Colossians 1:15 which states that Jesus is the first-born OF all creation, therefore i will ask you again, the verse states that Jesus is the first-born OF all creation, that is not distinct from it, how is it possible to be OF the creation as the verse states and not to be a created entity? for either the verse is wrong when it states that Jesus is OF the creation, that is a part OF creation or your understanding is incorrect, so please explain the term OF the creation.
I agree with suzianne. Obviously, He is not created because He created all things that was made from the beginning.
[b]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
(John 1:1-3 NKJV)
For by ...[text shortened]... sly, the Creator and Maker of all things is exempted from the things that were created and made.
Your irrelevant texts and remarks will be ignored as unworthy of serious comment.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBesides quoting John 1:1-3, I also quoted the the verses after your quoted verse and it explains it to you. Your problem in understanding is that you always want to take one verse out of the context.
You were not asked about John 1:1, you were asked about Colossians 1:15 which states that Jesus is the first-born OF all creation, therefore i will ask you again, the verse states that Jesus is the first-born OF all creation, that is not distinct from it, how is it possible to be OF the creation as the verse states and not to be a created entity? for ...[text shortened]... e creation.
Your irrelevant texts and remarks will be ignored as unworthy of serious comment.
Originally posted by RJHindsYep you are right. But that does not apply to Jesus as he himself said: "I am the FIRST of all creation".
I wrote:
"Obviously, the Creator and Maker of all things is exempted from the things that were created and made."
That is your answer.
But don't waist your time with a responce as you'll make the same excuses and weak explinations you always have to make that statement by Jesus a lie.
When one comes right out and calls the son of God a lier is pretty serious stuff.
Originally posted by galveston75Yes it does. Because the following is also said about Jesue:
Yep you are right. But that does not apply to Jesus as he himself said: "I am the FIRST of all creation".
But don't waist your time with a responce as you'll make the same excuses and weak explinations you always have to make that statement by Jesus a lie.
When one comes right out and calls the son of God a lier is pretty serious stuff.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:16-18 NKJV)
Notice it says "that in all things He may have the preeminence."
Do you know what "preeminence" means?