Originally posted by SerendipityNot all versions of the Big Bang theory postulate an endless repeating cycle.
According to daoism (which ties in with the bigbang theory) the cosmos is a bellow, it exhales (now) and inhales (the end), the exhalation will then start the cycle all over again, so there is no end.
Originally posted by darvlayLeviticus 18:6-10
Not even Jesus?
"None of you shall approach any blood relative of his to uncover nakedness. . . . You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness. The nakedness of your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether born at home or born outside, their nakedness you shall not uncover. The nakedness of your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter, their nakedness you shall not uncover; for their nakedness is yours."
Originally posted by bvbEarly in my reading of the Bible I noticed that God's salvation was much more exceedingly practical than I first imagined. His plan of salvation does not end with the spirit but includes the soul. It does not stop with the soul but goes on to encompass the physical body. Then it neither stops with the physical body but includes the environment.
I think "devine" eschatology is superstitious nonsense. I mean Jesus returning from heaven and leading the good against evil in the final great conflict? It's as silly as those "Left Behind" stories. Now "ethical" eschatology could make sense. The idea that adherence to the "Word of God" will eventually dispatch evil is an idea that I find very appealing.
From the center of the human being outward to the circumference of his whole universe, God's salvation includes a total renewing. So we read of man's being being transformed to be conformed to Christ and of the kingdom of nature itself being restored to harmony.
"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will se Him even as He is. And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is pure"
"But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and new earth, in which righteousness dwells" (2 Peter 3:13)
The Firstborn Son of God is leading many sons into the glorious expression of the Divine Life. And the environment is the new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells.
" ... the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God" (Rom.8:21)
"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers" (Rom. 8:29)
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Heb. 2:10)
Before God can restore the creation He first must impart and saturate His sons with His eternal life to be the many sons of God, and brothers of the Firstborn Son Christ.
Sons does not mean male in sex. It means in the New Testament having the same life and nature of God.
Originally posted by jaywillJaywill, could you give me an example of superstitious nonsense, and explain why it is such?
Early in my reading of the Bible I noticed that God's salvation was much more exceedingly practical than I first imagined. His plan of salvation does not end with the spirit but includes the soul. It does not stop with the soul but goes on to encompass the physical body. Then it neither stops with the physical body but includes the environment.
From the ...[text shortened]... male in sex. It means in the New Testament having the same life and nature of God.
Originally posted by PawnokeyholePawnokeyhole,
Jaywill, could you give me an example of superstitious nonsense, and explain why it is such?
You may cavalierly dismiss my references to the Bible as "superstitious nonsense" or "pie in the sky silliness" or "naive wishful thinking", or whatever.
That is what makes this so exciting. That the truth of God's word is so opposed with such self assurance. That's what makes it so interesting.
The Bible covers centries of examples of God's faithfulness to His word. Over a thousand years span the time of Abraham to Moses. We have quite a track record in the Bible of God's faithfulness. The 66 books written over a period of 1,600 years is quite a resume of God's ability to remember, keep, and work towards the fulfillment of His plans.
So when you come along with your unilateral charge of "superstitious nonsense" I can only caution that similiar things were said from the time of Genesis, through the Exodus, through the time of the Judges, through the times of the kings, through the times of the Babylonian Captivity, through the era of the recovery to the good land, through the enter testamental period, through the times of the New Testament.
Voltaire, the hefty athiest, promised that when he got through with the Christian faith, there would be nothing left standing his criticism. Voltaire has gone off to his reward, whatever it is, and the gospel of Jesus is still standing and growing.
So the track record of God's activity as seen in the Bible and through history does not persuade me that we're dealing with "superstitious nonsense."
Now, example of what exactly, are you asking me for?
Explain "why it is such" ? Can you narrow that down to a specific aspect of Christ's second coming to focus the question a little more - "why is it such?"
Originally posted by jaywillYou may cavalierly dismiss my references to the Bible as "superstitious nonsense" or "pie in the sky silliness" or "naive wishful thinking", or whatever.
Pawnokeyhole,
You may cavalierly dismiss my references to the Bible as "superstitious nonsense" or "pie in the sky silliness" or "naive wishful thinking", or whatever.
That is what makes this so exciting. That the truth of God's word is so opposed with such self assurance. That's what makes it so interesting.
The Bible ...[text shortened]... st's second coming to focus the question a little more - "why is it such?"
I DIDN'T: I ASKED YOU TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF SUPERSTITIOUS NONSENSE. I WANT TO SEE WHAT YOU REGARD AS SUCH. I AM INTERESTED IN DIVERGENT OPINIONS AS TO WHAT CONSTITUTES A FARFETCHED CLAIM.
That is what makes this so exciting. That the truth of God's word is so opposed with such self assurance. That's what makes it so interesting.
EXCITING AND COGENT ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
The Bible covers centries of examples of God's faithfulness to His word. Over a thousand years span the time of Abraham to Moses. We have quite a track record in the Bible of God's faithfulness. The 66 books written over a period of 1,600 years is quite a resume of God's ability to remember, keep, and work towards the fulfillment of His plans.
UNCONTROVERTABLY, WE HAVE A TRACK RECORD OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF. ONLY CONTROVERTABLY IS IT EVIDENCE OF GOD'S FAITHFULNESS.
So when you come along with your unilateral charge of "superstitious nonsense" I can only caution that similiar things were said from the time of Genesis, through the Exodus, through the time of the Judges, through the times of the kings, through the times of the Babylonian Captivity, through the era of the recovery to the good land, through the enter testamental period, through the times of the New Testament.
I HAVEN'T MADE THE CHARGE.
Voltaire, the hefty athiest, promised that when he got through with the Christian faith, there would be nothing left standing his criticism. Voltaire has gone off to his reward, whatever it is, and the gospel of Jesus is still standing and growing.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE WAS WRONG. FOR EXAMPLE, PERHAPS HE UNDERESTIMATED IRRATIONAL OPPOSITION TO HIS WAY OF THINKING.
So the track record of God's activity as seen in the Bible and through history does not persuade me that we're dealing with "superstitious nonsense."
Now, example of what exactly, are you asking me for?
Explain "why it is such" ? Can you narrow that down to a specific aspect of Christ's second coming to focus the question a little more - "why is it such?"
I THOUGHT MY REQUEST WAS CLEAR.
Pawn,
I DIDN'T: I ASKED YOU TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF SUPERSTITIOUS NONSENSE. I WANT TO SEE WHAT YOU REGARD AS SUCH. I AM INTERESTED IN DIVERGENT OPINIONS AS TO WHAT CONSTITUTES A FARFETCHED CLAIM.
You want me to give you an example of what I consider superstitious nonsense? I really don’t spend much time thinking about such things. I would say “superstitious” and “nonsense” may not always go together. There are things I consider superstition. They may not be altogether nonsensical.
And a certain age I was told at Christmas that someone heard Santa’s sleigh bells off in the woods. I might classify that as superstitious and not good sense.
Then someone might say that Jesus Christ was just a good moral teacher. I would consider that nonsensical. If someone were to say that a statue of Jesus was weepinp tears and was a sign from God, I would say that that was superstitious and not good sense.
EXCITING AND COGENT ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
Let me put it to you this way. I think that the one inevitable and unaviodable fact of human history is the total and universal vindication of everything Jesus of Nazareth said concerning Himself.
I think that towards a complete vindication of Jesus Christ is where history is moving.
UNCONTROVERTABLY, WE HAVE A TRACK RECORD OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF. ONLY CONTROVERTABLY IS IT EVIDENCE OF GOD'S FAITHFULNESS.
We have a track record not only of beliefs but also of unbelief. From Adam, through Cain, through the people of Noah’s day, through the doubts of Abraham, Issaac, and Jacob, through the Egyptians who oppressed Israel, though Moses himself and Aaron his brother, thought the various Jews of the nation of Israel not to mention the nations opposed to Yahweh, we have a record of man’s scoffing, ridicule, mocking, unbelief, presumption, accusation against God, rebellion, jeering, sneering, jesting, examining intelligently too.
For instance – we have in Matthew the magi stopping in Jerusalem to inquire where the king of the Jews should be born. The scholars of the sacred Scriptures knew the prophecy which indicated that Bethlehem was the place they should look to to see the Messiah.
Interestingly none of those teachers is said to have gone to investigate for themselves. Why not?
Herod the king faked interest. But his real concern was what was a “born king” doing in his domain? All the male boys three years and under were executed. This was to avoid the ascension of any such “born king” while Herod himself was on the throne.
So we have a record of belief and of opposing disbelief.
I am glad that God included so many examples of not only man’s faith and God’s faithfulness, but also of the unbelief of people, so we can see how things fared in the long run.
This gives us a sense of assurance about the future. We feel that again God will be faithful. And again scoffers will try to mock with their characteristic unbelief.
I HAVEN'T MADE THE CHARGE.
Okay. No need to shout.
Concerning Voltaire -
THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE WAS WRONG. FOR EXAMPLE, PERHAPS HE UNDERESTIMATED IRRATIONAL OPPOSITION TO HIS WAY OF THINKING.
It does mean he was wrong if he promised to destroy the Christian faith via his hard criticism.He failed. He thought, “I’m so good I’ll convince everyone that the Christian faith is nonsense.” I think he did not succeed.
I THOUGHT MY REQUEST WAS CLEAR
In one of the books of Samuel there is the record of how the Jews were at war with their enemies. They thought that regardless of the spiritual low state of the nation they could superstitiously rely on the ark of the covenant to lead them into victorious battle. The Bible says that they brought out the ark and shouted so loud that the ground split.
Unfortunely, they superstitiously overlooked that their moral and spiritual closeness to Jehovah God was more important than the mere posession of the ark of the covenant. They were soundly thrashed, defeated, and the ark of the covenant was stolen from them.
Here the Bible shows us a clear example of the distinction between true faith and superstitious presumption with an object that God Himself told them how to build.
And there are several other examples that God has shown us. These are to help us discern the distinction between faith and superstition.
Originally posted by jaywillOkay, give me an example of a farfetched belief that is reasonably commonly held, but with which you disagree.
Pawn,
[b]
I DIDN'T: I ASKED YOU TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF SUPERSTITIOUS NONSENSE. I WANT TO SEE WHAT YOU REGARD AS SUCH. I AM INTERESTED IN DIVERGENT OPINIONS AS TO WHAT CONSTITUTES A FARFETCHED CLAIM.
You want me to give you an example of what I consider superstitious nonsense? I really don’t spend much time thinking about such things. I would s ...[text shortened]... d has shown us. These are to help us discern the distinction between faith and superstition.[/b]
For example, I think it is farfetched both that (a) a man could die 2000 years ago, yet still be alive, and (b) that aliens in flying saucers abduct and carry out experiments upon human beings. However, a substantial number of people believe one or the other. I disagree with both groups of people.
Do you regard (b) as farfatched? Why? Why (b) yet not (a)? This is what I want to understand.
Okay, give me an example of a farfetched belief that is reasonably commonly held, but with which you disagree.
I think a somewhat commonly held idea which is farfetched is that human imagination invented the character of Jesus and placed fictional words in His mouth. That a group of fishermen from Galilee concocted such a character as Jesus of Nazareth, I think is a farfetched idea.
I disagree with this idea that the deeds and words of Jesus came out of human imagination.
For example, I think it is farfetched both that (a) a man could die 2000 years ago, yet still be alive, and (b) that aliens in flying saucers abduct and carry out experiments upon human beings. However, a substantial number of people believe one or the other. I disagree with both groups of people.
Do you regard (b) as farfatched? Why? Why (b) yet not (a)? This is what I want to understand.
The phrase ”eternal life” carries to me the connotation not only quantity but quality. The life of Jesus not being destroyed by death is consistent with the quality of life which He manifested.
I think that is is reasonable that a God Who is eternal life is also indistructible. Not only quantitatively do I expect God to continue forever. I also expect qualitatively, the truth, the diginity, the majesty, the righteousness, the moral splendour of such a life should be more powerful than the forces of evil against it. It seems right and proper to me that someone like Christ is indestructible. Though He submitted Himself to death in His obedience to His Father, death could not hold Him. I feel that it is appropriate that the truth that Christ embodies cannot be terminated.
Someone said “No lie can live forever.”
I think this is the essence of the resurrection, ascension, and continuation of the life of Jesus. Truth lives forever. But no lie can live forever.
So I believe that Jesus is not only alive and that we will physically see Him again, I also believe that as the Holy Spirit He is available today, right now, to enter into our human spirit and dwell within our hearts.
As the Father lived within Him, He today can live within those who open their hearts and spirit to receive Him. I think this truth is more reliable and settled to me than even my self knowledge of my own being. I honestly think that it is easier for me to forget who I am than to forget that Jesus is the resurrection and the life and can live within me today.
And of course I know that I shall see Him upon the earth reigning over the entire planet, and indeed the universe eventually.
Now as to space aliens:
The testimony left in the detailed teaching of Jesus coupled with His impact on human history and he lives who those who followed His teaching are hard to compare with the scattered and varied reports of abductions or visitations by space aliens.
I think there is a content deficit in the explanation of the reasons, motives, intentions, activities of the latter, not altogether lacking, but hard to compare to the teachings and historicity of Jesus.
I could with objectivity employ my professional skills as a statistical programmer analyst to the SETI project without prejudice. I would feel happy about joining the effort to see if intelligent signals from outer space are being aimed at the earth. I think Intelligent Design is a legitimate assumption upon which to explore whether or not some advanced civilization could be attempting to communicate by radio signals with the earth. This is science research. And I think it is worthwhile if the money is there.
Some of the accounts of encounters with space aliens I would regard as deception from demonic spirits. They opposed the Gospel of Christ 2,000 years ago. And they adjust there tactics to deceive the human race also in modern times.
But I would not let this sway me away from science research to imperically detect radio signals from a possible intelligent source in deep space.
Originally posted by NemesioThe comparison is not too good.
What's left to say after this?
But I don't mock stories of abduction by space aliens, unless they appear in the tabloid magazines as obvious etertainment. Something could have happened to a small subset of those making claims.
One thing I seem to notice is that the people who claim to have been abducted usually portray the aliens as having simililar New Age philosophies as themselves.