Spirituality
18 May 11
20 May 11
Originally posted by menace71then they are not Jehovahs witnesses, they are apostates! watchtower.org, the only official site of Jehovahs witnesses.
I'm not arguing with you just pointing that there are JW's who don't agree with all of the doctrines of the Watch tower dissenters so to speak.
Manny
21 May 11
Originally posted by menace71back peddle? our stance is quite clear, we refuse whole blood or any of its four major constituent parts, blood fractions are a matter of conscience. You cannot get any clearer than that.
I have a feeling that the watchtower is going to back peddle on this doctrine in the near future. There already starting to. How will that affect what you guys believe? If it comes out of Brooklyn NY then it is law right? Will you go along with it or no?
Manny
22 May 11
Originally posted by galveston75How very magnanimous of you; you make it all sound like leaving a club. And yet someone choosing to leave or being dis-fellow-shipped from the JW's is actually not as casual a matter as your post implies is it. It is an emotionally painful and spiritually excluding process that often leaves the abandonee in a state of emotional trauma.
And why shouldn't there be? Aren't there ones from all religions that leave because of not being happy? Aren't all humans able to decide what they like and don't like on any level in life?
No one is forced to be a JW. I never was by any means and none of the kids I grew up were forced.
22 May 11
Originally posted by divegeesterIf thats the case then the person has put their faith in the man-made JW organisation. They should have known that when they accept Christ and they are baptised that they are in fellowship with Christ and the followers of Christ. Their faith is therefore both misdirected and weak.
How very magnanimous of you; you make it all sound like leaving a club. And yet someone choosing to leave or being dis-fellow-shipped from the JW's is actually not as casual a matter as your post implies is it. It is an emotionally painful and spiritually excluding process that often leaves the abandonee in a state of emotional trauma.
23 May 11
Originally posted by divegeesterI have no idea what post your referring to or are you masterfully changing what I said again? You seem to do that quite regularly and you should stop misquoting what others say. It really makes your worth drop drasticly in everyones eyes.
How very magnanimous of you; you make it all sound like leaving a club. And yet someone choosing to leave or being dis-fellow-shipped from the JW's is actually not as casual a matter as your post implies is it. It is an emotionally painful and spiritually excluding process that often leaves the abandonee in a state of emotional trauma.
But to clear up what your misquoting to fit your ideas, here it is.
First, yes it can be a painful experiance for one to be disfellowshipped as I have had personal friends go that direction. It takes a person quite an amount of determination and effort to be disfellowshipped from the congregation. It's not just one meeting for a few minutes and then your out. It takes multiple meetings and trying to reason and help that person to first see the wrong their doing and how it can be dangerous to them and to the congregation.
Many times that person can be brought back to their senses with help from the scriptures by the Brothers and they will not continue doing what is wrong by Bible standards
For example as homosexuality has been discussed sooooo much here lately this is a perfect example. If one has fallen into such an error and it was brought to the attention of the congregation, a meeting will be arranged with that person. If that person comes to understand the seriousness of the offence and shows genuine regret and sorrow, they may just be reproved and futher explained how wrong that action is and be put on some time period of probation.
But if that person displays no sorrow or refuses to see the seriousness accoring to the Bible of that sin, probably another meeting with them at another time may happen to give them a chance to respond differently with more time to gain the right understanding to the scriptures shown to them. But then if no regret and no indication that they will stop that sinful pracrice in the future then disfellowshipping will probably happen.
Now if ones heart leads them to not accept the council and decides to leave the congregation, that is totally their decision. They will be disfellowshipped but with everyones hope that they will turn around someday and return.
And many times ones who are disfellowshipped, after some time do see the wrong they did and do realize why they were disfellowshipped and do still attend the meetings which is allowed. After some time of being faithful to the meetings and by seriously trying to gain the right to be allowed back in, it will happen and all of the congregation will welcome them back with open arms.
It's not an easy thing to do but if their heart is right they will understand why the Bible says to keep the congregation clean of ones "practicing" a serious sin.
If their heart is in the wrong place and want to pursue a certian life style, that is their decision. If they get mad at the congregation and turn against us, that is there decision. But the Brothers have to follow the Bible's commands and guidelines on these matters just as the early congregations did. THE CONGREGATIONS ARE TO BE KEPT CLEAN. Clear on that bible command at all yet?
Probably "No". I seriously doubt you'll agree with this scriptural process and thats your decision. But at least I hope you will somehow come to a clearer understanding of this scriptural process and stop twisting the truth with your watered down opinions.
23 May 11
Originally posted by galveston75G-75 (Steve) Hey I mean this with all respect to you. Think for a minute why would God not give you all of the light you need in the first place? Why a need for the light to get brighter with time? God knows it all already (If you believe in an omniscient God)God knows it already. His revealed truth will always be 100% correct. If this not be the case then God is flawed do see my point? Sure there can be error due to our understanding but that does not mean that God has not provided the answer already without further need to expound on a truth. The God of the old testament when he revealed a truth or let's say a prophecy it came to pass with 100% accuracy. There was no need to wait for further light.
As the "light" of what God wants and expects of us an an organization has gotten clearer over the decades the debates that you are refering to happen less and less. But I'm not aware of even on the local levels in our congregations of any debates or especially a "heated debate" which is what I think you might be referring too, ever happening.
Again as ...[text shortened]... eliefs has become stronger and more in agreement just as the scriptures say they should be.
Manny
23 May 11
Originally posted by menace71There are many reasons why. First that scripture about spiritual light is written for a reason or else it wouldn't be there. And one example that Robbie brought out is it took the apostles a while to start to understand all that Jesus was teaching them and even then they did not learn it all correctly.
G-75 (Steve) Hey I mean this with all respect to you. Think for a minute why would God not give you all of the light you need in the first place? Why a need for the light to get brighter with time? God knows it all already (If you believe in an omniscient God)God knows it already. His revealed truth will always be 100% correct. If this not be the case then ...[text shortened]... hecy it came to pass with 100% accuracy. There was no need to wait for further light.
Manny
And with anything we are learning in life we in our lifetimes never get it right even if it's in black and white in front of us. Many of us have been studying the Bible or any number of subjects and we never get the full understanding of it. I still to this day read a scriture I've read a hundred times and thought I got it but then something happenes that now I really get it. And the Bible aslo expalins that many will read the Bible just the same as we can do but never see the meaning of even a simple scripture..and that's because God does not let them see with understanding. If the heart condition is right, it will be understood.
And you know the scripture that explains how some fall away from the true teachings because of time passing by. It causes a weeding out of ones who are not in it for the long run. They tend to grab at the first spiritual treat that looks interesting but when the truth of something that isn't really what their looking for comes up, they decide it's not for them. Remember the rich man who wanted to follow Jesus but then changed his mind when he was told to give his riches away.
So back to the point it is a way to test ones out and see where their hearts and motives are. Like I said I didn't write that scripture or the illustrations of the wheat and weeds. But that's what there referring too.
And are you sure God know's all before it happens? Did he know that Adam and Eve would fall and sin before they did? Did he know Judas would be the one to betray Jesus? Did he know that Hitler would kill all that he did?
I'm going to post this for you because I'm actually to tired this evening to type it all.
"This concept would mean that, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons, the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden (Ge 3:1-6; Joh 8:44), and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day. This would necessarily mean that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creation’s beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all of its minutest details.
If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Ge 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.—Jas 3:14-18."
So that's something to consider in thinking God knows all that will happen in the future. If he truely can see the future, then yes he would be a very cruel God to let it happen knowing the bad that would come along. Doesn't seem like the God we know, Right?
Also on the other hand all the truth we need to know is in the Bible and God gave us all we need to know in it for this time. It's up to us now to whole heartedly ask God for the answers and be willing to accept them even if it's not easy or the popular thing to do.
Jesus said his followers would be hated because of this.
23 May 11
1 edit
If God is not bound by time he would be said to be outside of time. He recognizes time of course and the succession of events but He started time. (If you indeed believe he created the universe) He is said to be omniscient knowing all things. If this be so then He would know all possible outcomes. How can prophecy even be if God is not omniscient? There are examples in the old testament were God proclaims that something will occur in the yet future and it occurred after the proclamation. Also just because God knows evil will occur does not in and of its self mean that God is the creator of the evil. You have to account for personal will or freewill. (I admit I struggle with this that if God knew we would fail or could fail why set up such a system?) The flip side of this is if God is not all knowing then how can he know what the future will hold? He can't if you follow that line of thought.
If God is not omniscient then why ask God anything? We don't need Him then right?
Manny
23 May 11
Originally posted by menace71No problem with any of your comment. I think the point missing here though about God and making prophicies that do come true is God's ability to control situations, people, and events to make sure what he has said will come true.
I say all of that above to play devils advocate so to speak. I'm trying to challenge you to think outside the box is all. God is not bound by man's puny concepts of Him is all I'm saying.
Manny
An example would be the promise he made to Abraham that a great nation and the messiah would come from his offspring some time in the future.
If that was a given set in stone fact and God already knew for sure that Jesus would have been born the way he had planned no matter what, then why did God have to protect the nation of Israel from waring paganistic nations all around them? It seems that promise still hinged on God having to control all the doings of Israel for many many years to make absolutely sure that Jesus would actually be born from Abrahams seed.
If God absolutley knew that Jesus would be born then he would not have to do all the fighting and protection he did for the nation of Israel. It would have just happened. Right?
So no it's your turn to think out of the box.... 🙂
23 May 11
Originally posted by galveston75Please state what I "misquoted".
I have no idea what post your referring to or are you masterfully changing what I said again? You seem to do that quite regularly and you should stop misquoting what others say. It really makes your worth drop drasticly in everyones eyes.
But to clear up what your misquoting to fit your ideas, here it is.
First, yes it can be a painful experiance fo ...[text shortened]... of this scriptural process and stop twisting the truth with your watered down opinions.
Thanks.
23 May 11
Originally posted by divegeesterYou mentioned that it sounded like a club. I'm assuming you think it's that simple minded of us to just discard ones who don't pay their dues or however you think it works. Your so wrong. As I've said it does hurt all in the congregation when one has made a serious mistake and then for whatever reason does not want to correct that action and turns their back on the congregation and the friendships we had with them.
Please state what I "misquoted".
Thanks.
As I said your so wrong with your view of this as I know your not a JW, probably have never been to a meeting, certianly have never set in and listened to a meeting where one is trying to be helped to not be disfellowshipped by the Elders and never seen the pain and sorrow involved when that decisuion has to be made.
My father was an elder for many decades and I saw him come home many times after a meeting like that in tears and upset for weeks. But it is a command in the Bible to do that step when needed which to keep the congregations clean from that influance...............
1 Corinthians 5:13 (New Living Translation)
13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”[a]
23 May 11
Originally posted by galveston75Do you deny that the JW org predicted a rapture/end of days in 1914, 1918, 1925 and 1942?
As Robbie and myself have mentioned before and something you obvioulsy are not able to comprehend, is we never pulled any prophecy of any kind out of thin air and just made it up.
The early Brothers were aware of the prophecies in the Bible and according to world events that were happening at that time as well as chronology in the Bible, that it was ti ...[text shortened]... wledge of what the Bible is teaching us.
Sorry your being left out of this process.....