Empathy and Morality

@hakima said
I disagree. Empathy is a personal virtue. The question of how empathy affects morality is one that is worthy of self reflection in the same way that one considers how personal philanthropy affects morality. Sometimes the questions that lead to this sort of self reflection are hard and doubly so when posed by another. The story of the man who went away sorrowing after Jesus admonished selling his possessions to benefit the poor in order to get to heaven comes to mind.

But that instance is interesting because the personal is being applied broadly.

What @FMF seems to be trying to do is to get me to talk about myself personally as opposed to the topic, as if I need to acively present some moment where I was individually dehumanized along these lines.

@philokalia said
What @FMF seems to be trying to do is to get me to talk about myself personally as opposed to the topic, as if I need to acively present some moment where I was individually dehumanized along these lines.

Yes. It might take a bit of courage, though. Your broad-brush misanthropy on the previous page didn't require any. Nor did it seem to have much substance other than a vague haughty posture.

If you have no experience of your own capacity for empathy clashing with someone else's with some sort of moral consequences, and it resulting in "dehumanization", then all you are is a pseudy ideologue reciting woolly, jaundiced talking points and being snide about people whose perspectives you wish to dismiss.

@philokalia said
Oh, I have no issue with talking about how people who say humanity is X, and so people who do not support X are bigots, are dehumanizing others.

But this is not in a personal sense. It is the division of humanity into those who are humanitarian/good and those who are bigoted/bad.

I suppose sometimes it does become personal, as in literally saying that John Boy is a bigot because of X, but that is skating off into the territory of drama.

I don't know why you are being so sloppy and vague. Be clear. You said that the first person who invokes humanity and humanitarianism is often the first person to dehumanize someone else. So what not say: do you also believe that the first person who opposes or rejects those who invoke humanity and humanitarianism is often the first person to dehumanize someone else?

@philokalia said
What @FMF seems to be trying to do is to get me to talk about myself personally as opposed to the topic, as if I need to acively present some moment where I was individually dehumanized along these lines.

Do you have friends who were "individually dehumanized" by people who are oriented towards humanitarianism? Neighbours? People at work?

There must be some examples or anecdotes that illustrate your assertions about people with "misguided empathy" that might elevate what you have offered so far to something more than a kind of anti-humanitarianism propaganda, which is presumably reinforced by whatever confirmation bias/vicarious 'experiencing' you undergo or engage in.

@fmf said
Yes. It might take a bit of courage, though. Your broad-brush misanthropy on the previous page didn't require any.

I was unaware that one had to be courageous while posting on the innernat.

@fmf said
then all you are is a pseudy ideologue reciting woolly, jaundiced talking points and being snide about people whose perspectives you wish to dismiss.

Because I am not volunteering personal anecdotes about moral injury induced by overly empathetic people appealing to humanity, I am all that?
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@philokalia said
I was unaware that one had to be courageous while posting on the innernat.

You should post as you see fit. I think you were poisoning the well on the previous page. You feel that people you disagree with are prone to dehumanizing others because they have a humanitarian orientation ~ but who they are appears to be a secret, concrete examples appear to be a secret, and whether it has happened to you also appears to be a secret.

@fmf said
do you also believe that the first person who opposes or rejects those who invoke humanity and humanitarianism is often the first person to dehumanize someone else?

Sure, it would be possible that:

Person A says something divisive and that holds ill will towards many, including Person B.

Person B then says something that is also divisive and full of ill will of their own, this time towards Person A.

I think we've all seen that before.

@philokalia said
Because I am not volunteering personal anecdotes about moral injury induced by overly empathetic people appealing to humanity, I am all that?

Then you appear to be engaging in broad-brush propaganda. You won't even give an example of "misguided empathy".

@philokalia said
Sure, it would be possible that:

Person A says something divisive and that holds ill will towards many, including Person B.

Person B then says something that is also divisive and full of ill will of their own, this time towards Person A.

I think we've all seen that before.

So. if you do indeed believe that the first person who opposes or rejects those who invoke humanity and humanitarianism is often the first person to dehumanize someone else, why didn't you say so on page 1?

@fmf said
Then you appear to be engaging in broad-brush propaganda. You won't even give an example of "misguided empathy".

This is only half-correct.

I have laughed at the idea of giving a personal example.

I have also not really given an example otherwise because I think the point is sufficient enough on its own, and have not been asked for a general example.

@fmf said
So. if you do indeed believe that the first person who opposes or rejects those who invoke humanity and humanitarianism is often the first person to dehumanize someone else, why didn't you say so on page 1?

Because that's not what I even said in the content you quoted.

@philokalia said
This is only half-correct.

I have laughed at the idea of giving a personal example.

I have also not really given an example otherwise because I think the point is sufficient enough on its own, and have not been asked for a general example.

Why are refusing to give any examples?

@philokalia said
Because that's not what I even said in the content you quoted.

But, if it turns out that you ALSO believe that people who oppose those who invoke humanitarianism are prone to dehumanizing them, then why didn't you say so alongside the supposed dehumanization that you DID mention?

Philokalia, do you have any concrete examples of people who you claim have been dehumanized by those who invoke humanitarianism or who have "misguided empathy"?