Drange's argument from nonbelief

Originally posted by JS357
I've read (in the Oxford Companion to Philosophy) something to the effect that the inapplicability of the principles of logic to a subject, stultifies rational thought on that subject. An example of the principles of logic would be excluded middle. It states that for any proposition, either that proposition is true, or its negation is.

The point here is tha ...[text shortened]... can possibly achieve, is to demonstrate which aspects they are.

I say this as a non-theist.

My physics training would like to respond that until anything anywhere ever shows the
merest hint of not following the laws of logic I'll stick to saying that something logically
impossible is impossible.

However as you say, being logically impossible makes claiming anything at all about god
impossible.

Not many theists i would have thought would like to give up the ability to claim god to be
good, or just, or anything else they might want to claim.

And their is no point having a rational argument with people who declare their god
doesn't have to comply with the laws of logic because they have abandoned all logic and reason.

Originally posted by RJHinds
When the Holy Bible indicates God can not Lie, it actually means He will
not Lie even though He has the power to do so. I think this is the idea
that josephw was trying to make. Do you understand now?

We understood before, however do you understand that if god has the power to lie but would never choose to do so
(although how you can claim to know this...) then you still answer the question "can god lie if he chooses?" with "yes",
even if you clarify it with "but he would never do that".

So in asking if god is omnipotent as defined as "infinitely powerful and able to do absolutely anything he wanted" the answer
would be yes, even if you then follow it up with, but their would be some things he wouldn't want to do.

In the same way that I have the power and capability to go out, buy a gun, and shoot someone, and this doesn't change
because it is not in my nature to want to do such a thing, and thus I would never do it.

Originally posted by RJHinds
When the Holy Bible indicates God can not Lie, it actually means He will
not Lie even though He has the power to do so. I think this is the idea
that josephw was trying to make. Do you understand now?

I don't see how God has the power to lie. If he says the moon is made of green cheese, suddenly it is. If he is driving down the road and sings, "I wish I was an Oscar Meyer wiener" suddenly he is one. Do you understand now?

Originally posted by JS357
I don't see how God has the power to lie. If he says the moon is made of green cheese, suddenly it is. If he is driving down the road and sings, "I wish I was an Oscar Meyer wiener" suddenly he is one. Do you understand now?

In fairness I think he meant 'has the ability to utter known falsehoods'.

Originally posted by googlefudge
In fairness I think he meant 'has the ability to utter known falsehoods'.

If God has revealed to RJ that He can lie, I say He's lying.😲

Originally posted by JS357
I don't see how God has the power to lie. If he says the moon is made of green cheese, suddenly it is. If he is driving down the road and sings, "I wish I was an Oscar Meyer wiener" suddenly he is one. Do you understand now?

He would first have to say, "Let the moon be made of green cheese."
But I get your point; but don't you get mine that He would not say
something that He had not made sure was true first?

Originally posted by RJHinds
He would first have to say, "Let the moon be made of green cheese."
But I get your point; but don't you get mine that He would not say
something that He had not made sure was true first?

LOL
Sometimes you are hilarious.
All these rules for God.

Originally posted by JS357
LOL
Sometimes you are hilarious.
All these rules for God.

God is the one you must think is hilarious then for He has made these
rules for himself.

Originally posted by JS357
I say this as a non-theist.

Haven't you (somewhat angrily at times) stated time and again that you are a theist?

Have you suddenly had a conversion? No, probably not, thus as many theists here claim, you've always been an atheist. Or at the very least, an atheist apologist.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Haven't you (somewhat angrily at times) stated time and again that you are a theist?

Have you suddenly had a conversion? No, probably not, thus as many theists here claim, you've always been an atheist. Or at the very least, an atheist apologist.

I'm not a theist and haven't said I am, angrily or otherwise. It's funny to think how hard it could be to "prove" oneself a theist or non-theist. It's probably easier to prove oneself a theist by showing a deep knowledge of scriptures, etc. I suppose I could tell you about some non-theistic readings I have done. Man and His Gods by Homer W. Smith was an early read. Mark Twain's the Mysterious Stranger. Voltaire's Candide. I'm a chemist by education. When I was in Catholic school we were warned about the secularization that can occur in college. They were right.

Maybe it's that I'm not a militant atheist. I'm just not a theist. I introspect and find no belief in deity, I find a belief there is no deity. How could anybody believe this world is the product of a perfect being?

But I am drawn to things philosophical. I think I could argue some of the theistic positions better than some theists. Maybe I'm a theist and don't know it. 🙂

Originally posted by JS357
I'm not a theist and haven't said I am, angrily or otherwise. It's funny to think how hard it could be to "prove" oneself a theist or non-theist. It's probably easier to prove oneself a theist by showing a deep knowledge of scriptures, etc. I suppose I could tell you about some non-theistic readings I have done. Man and His Gods by Homer W. Smith was an early ...[text shortened]... istic positions better than some theists. Maybe I'm a theist and don't know it. 🙂

who the heck am I thinking about then?

I'm sorry if I got you mixed up with someone else.

Originally posted by Suzianne
who the heck am I thinking about then?

I'm sorry if I got you mixed up with someone else.

Their are a number of people with similar names and icons (avatars) who have radically different views who I confuse on a regular basis, so your not the only one who gets people on here mixed up.

Originally posted by JS357
I'm not a theist and haven't said I am, angrily or otherwise. It's funny to think how hard it could be to "prove" oneself a theist or non-theist. It's probably easier to prove oneself a theist by showing a deep knowledge of scriptures, etc. I suppose I could tell you about some non-theistic readings I have done. Man and His Gods by Homer W. Smith was an early ...[text shortened]... istic positions better than some theists. Maybe I'm a theist and don't know it. 🙂

"How could anybody believe this world is the product of a perfect being?"

Easy, the world was made "imperfect"so that we amy learn our lessons in this life.
(Not that I'm siding with the christians here), I'm just saying that if the world was perfect then there would be no impetus for us to learn anything.
My view is that we have been incarnated onto this planet , at this time to bring more light into this part on the universe. We ("God" ) are/is 'colonizing' the universe and spreading "light" throughout the universe (as much as is practically possible).

(I'll admit that I haven't exactly been following this thread word for word), but imo, "God" wants us to fulfill our destinies and in the process spread his "kingdom" .
(i really do hate using words such as "kingdom" and "God", for example, but for the sake of clarity and brevity , I will stick to these words so as not to further confuse an already confusing topic. I'm sure you can get a gist of what I'm trying to say here and if not then just say so, as I would be more than happy to elaborate/clarify mu point(s) here)

Originally posted by JS357
LOL
Sometimes you are hilarious.
All these rules for God.

I don't believe "God" has any rules.
Guidelines, sure, but not hard and fastened rules. Rules are what man makes.
You might want to call gravity a rule, which is fair enough, but as far as morals and other human standards are concerned , I don't believe there are any rules.

We must become very small,(hence the need for a basic understanding of quantum). Teensy Weensy, to fit through the minute 'hole' that "God" has left open for us to 'wriggle' through. ( I have had many dreams describing , in one way or another , this very scenario, ie. that we must make ourselves (our egos) small enough to fit through this little "gap" that "God" has left for each and every one of us to squeeze through). (much like a sperm wriggling it's way into a womb)

We have to leave all our psycic baggage at the 'door', but when we get through, we will experience a freedom like never before.
It is a sacrifice, to be sure. That is what "God" wants of us.The re-uniting of our "souls" (a word I have to put in inverted commas) is the natural inclination of all our "souls".

( Not that I am always trying to use inverted commas when mentioning God so as not to confuse the christian,manifested God with the "force of animation" that I refer to when I say "God". They are two completely different things as I have tried to point out many times.)

There is no God , (as in a manifested entity that is separate from the rest of creation), however there is a universal force that animates the entire universe which is what I refer to as God.
I believe that the bible is just a childish way of introducing "God" as an anthropomorphised "person" so people can get an idea of the universe.
The truth is that 'God' is immaterial, in everything ,(including the "devil" ), and any other "thing" that may be considered outside of "God" .

Nothing is outside of "God". And any entity claiming to be "God" is just a manifestation of , an entity, that is NOT God.

I dont know why so many christians have so much trouble understanding this.
If we are eternal then we were "alive" ,(in some form), before this incarnation.

It is my logical conclusion that we are suffering some sort of amnesia and that the purpose of this life is to work out who we are,(or more precisely "what" we are), so that we may realize who we are, rid ourselves of "fear" once and for all" and re-unite ourselves with the matrix of our creations, ("God" ).
That is the goal of all humans , whether we are concious of it or not. So I submit that our lives should be spent in the "pursuit" of this understanding. Anything else is worthless and serves no purpose except maybe to further distract ourselves from our true goals. (Ok,I'll stop now 🙂 )

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I don't believe "God" has any rules.
Guidelines, sure, but not hard and fastened rules. Rules are what man makes.
You might want to call gravity a rule, which is fair enough, but as far as morals and other human standards are concerned , I don't believe there are any rules.

We must become very small,(hence the need for a basic understanding of q ...[text shortened]... om our true goals. (Ok,I'll stop now 🙂 )

The Holy Bible teaches we are not eternal. That is why so many christians
have so much trouble understanding this.