Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeGood post. All Christians so far when confronted with this passage make some evasive and vague comment about what it is not rather than what it is.
No, not really.
Gentiles are usually understood as 'non-Jews,'(which is probably your comeback) but Jesus also puts 'pagans' under the same umbrella. Now, when we take into account that Ignatius, in turn, called pagans atheoi (being “without God” ) we can link the 3.
Gentile = Pagan = Atheist.
😏
Edit: Ooh, we can also throw in Ephes ...[text shortened]... rael and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world."
Again a professed atheist shedding light on a difficult passage which stump many Christians.
07 Jun 18
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Originally posted by @rajk999(1) Alright; let's say that even works are equally important to faith, and that faith without works is dead, etc. Sure.
Faith is nothing without works.
The greatest of the three, faith hope and charity is charity
All the law is fulfilled in one word ..love.
If you want eternal life, follow the commandments.
Jesus and God abide in those who follow the commandments
These statements are all over the Bible.
They are stated over and over in many different ways
There are ...[text shortened]... Kingdom of God. They are all over the world, they are in all churches and all groups of people.
How would faith be unimportant, then, and how would someone who consciously rejects faith in God gain entrance into the Kingdom of God?
The below passage touches on this.
This is from Matthew 21:31:
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
The idea is basically that the lowliest people in the society in terms of deeds are accepted into the Kingdom of God before people who apparently occupy decent enough positions because they are justified by their faith...
(2) You were citing Matthew 5 before. So, let's look at a passage from there:
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
The standard for the Christian is to not even commit sins of lust in his heart.
Have you ever met a materialist and an atheist that has believed that their wandering passions and lusts in their heart is anything but a natural manifestation of things? Have you ever met one that would advise a young boy to not entertain such thoughts? Would they not simplys ay that this is a natural phenomena?
Why would an atheist [i]even try to uphold the standards proposed by Christianity?
The very metaphysics of Christian morality are based on Faith in the spiritual world.
There were other statements and questions in my original post.
Please confront them; it is wrong to justify a position that atheists are superior to faithful Christians that are mroally flawed. It is unbiblical and a dangerous theological position.
Originally posted by @philokaliaYour first sentence is wrong.
(1) Alright; let's say that even works are equally important to faith, and that faith without works is dead, etc. Sure.
How would faith be unimportant, then, and how would someone who [i]consciously rejects faith in God gain entrance into the Kingdom of God?
The below passage touches on this.
This is from Matthew 21:31:
[quote]Jesus s ...[text shortened]... l Christians that are mroally flawed. It is unbiblical and a dangerous theological position.[/b]
Works are not equally important to faith.
Works is MORE IMPORTANT than faith
Faith is nothing without works
Works without faith is still something.
I know a church Christian cannot digest that but it is in the bible.
And your last sentence is also wrong,
A morally flawed Christian is worse off in the end than an atheist.
The bible says that a man who accepts Christ and then continues to sin, it was better if he did not know Christ in the first place.
Also all your statements about atheists being sinful or not wanting to do good works is just plain nonsense.
Finally the most dangerous theological position to hold is that a Christian can continue with sin and still get eternal life... ie the OSAS doctrine.
We can discuss more later but thats all the time I have for now.
Originally posted by @philokaliaThis is from Matthew 21:31:
(1) Alright; let's say that even works are equally important to faith, and that faith without works is dead, etc. Sure.
How would faith be unimportant, then, and how would someone who [i]consciously rejects faith in God gain entrance into the Kingdom of God?
The below passage touches on this.
This is from Matthew 21:31:
[quote]Jesus s ...[text shortened]... l Christians that are mroally flawed. It is unbiblical and a dangerous theological position.[/b]
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
The idea is basically that the lowliest people in the society in terms of deeds are accepted into the Kingdom of God before people who apparently occupy decent enough positions because they are justified by their faith...
Jesus said that the tax collectors and the prostitutes repented and believed John's "way of righteousness" while those in His audience did not. Christians and non-Christians alike can follow "the way of righteousness". The concept is really simple: Righteous is as righteous DOES.
Your assertion that Jesus is speaking of them being "justified by faith" is nonsense. Perhaps if you didn't take those verses out of the context of the parable of the two sons, you would have realized this.
John's "way of righteousness" is also about DOING {producing good fruit).
Matthew 3
8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Note happens to those who do not "produce good fruit": They "will be cut down and thrown into the fire".
Righteous is as righteous DOES.
07 Jun 18
Originally posted by @rajk999alright, so justify the idea that faith is unimportant and not a factor at all.
Your first sentence is wrong.
Works are not equally important to faith.
Works is MORE IMPORTANT than faith
Faith is nothing without works
Works without faith is still something.
I know a church Christian cannot digest that but it is in the bible.
And your last sentence is also wrong,
A morally flawed Christian is worse off in the end than an at ...[text shortened]... ife... ie the OSAS doctrine.
We can discuss more later but thats all the time I have for now.
Where is there the message that it doesn't matter if you don't believe in me?
Moreover... Can you please talk about how something that Christ considers a big sin (lusting in one's heart) is something that an atheist would even be interested in fully erasing?
07 Jun 18
James believes that Faith is a vital part of Christianity:
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
James 1
The message seems to be very clear:
- Have faith in God. It is a virute. Doubt will be very negative for you.
- Having Faith and praying to God literally gives you virtues and graces.
How can an atheist have the virtue of Faith, and not be blown about on the seas?
How can an atheist believe that, by havign faith and praying to God, he will literally obtain virtues and graces from God? This makes no sense to an atheist.
You also have this:
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:18. It seays here that BELIEVING is very important.
Why should an atheist even believe in Christ? How does an atheist even affirm these virtues?
What about these words of Christ - -what do they mean?
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16.
The simplest explanation for these passages, and hundreds of other passages, is that
... Belief is important; Faith corresponds to belief; Faith is a part of salvation....
You can attach some doctrine about the necessity of works to this. I will not debate you so much on that. That would be a different and interesting debate and it could be a position that actually seems feasible by Biblical standards, though a bit unconventional.
.... How do you conclude that belief is irrelevant? I do not see how this position is conceivable based on what is presented.
Hwo do you handle these passages?
Originally posted by @philokaliaFocussing on specific sins and trying to rate their importance is not my thing. That is a waste of time. Jesus will judge that.
alright, so justify the idea that faith is unimportant and not a factor at all.
Where is there the message that it doesn't matter if you don't believe in me?
Moreover... Can you please talk about how something that Christ considers a big sin (lusting in one's heart) is something that an atheist would even be interested in fully erasing?
If you read all the passages that speak of the criteria for entry into the kingdom of God you would see that its mostly about works and righteousness.
Matt 25 is a good example
07 Jun 18
So why does Christ talk about the importance of belief?
And why does James?
Why is this what the Apostles & DIsciples simply preached as they went out into the world -- Acts 16:31?
And why did Paul write in Hebrews 11:6:
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him
... BASICALLY,
There are endless places in the Bible where Faith is said to be important and vital to salvation.
Why did all of the early Christians believe Faith was vital?
Why did Christ talk about it as being vital in mark 16:16?
I will accept some idea about works being vitally important and true repentance as performing these sorts of works as legitimate, arguable positions within Christianity.
The idea that faith is unimportant and that atheists are saved while consciously rejecting Faith is unbiblical and you cannot make a Biblical argument to say that.
The reason that you cannot make a Biblical argument to say that is because there is literally no basis, and God would not have created a Divinely Inspired text that was so fundamentally flawed.
I am sure you are congratulated all the time by atheists and liberal Christians for these positions... But they are fundamentally erroneous and not Christian. And, to actual Christians, you have to justify themw ith the Bible, with thew ord of God, or with some deep tradition that is connected to the word of God... You've done none of that.
If I do not warn you that your position is heretical I am not doing my job.
07 Jun 18
Originally posted by @philokaliaI will tackle the details of your post tomorrow.
So why does Christ talk about the importance of belief?
And why does James?
Why is this what the Apostles & DIsciples simply preached as they went out into the world -- Acts 16:31?
And why did Paul write in Hebrews 11:6:
[quote]And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and ...[text shortened]... one none of that.
If I do not warn you that your position is heretical I am not doing my job.
For now what does Paul mean about those without law in Romans 2?
Heretical ? What is that? Some church crime?
07 Jun 18
Originally posted by @rajk999This is the section of Romans 2 you must be referring to:
I will tackle the details of your post tomorrow.
For now what does Paul mean about those without law in Romans 2?
Heretical ? What is that? Some church crime?
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Right, so what I take form this is that the Gentiles also have in their heart some semblance of a law. Thus, even though they are not Jews, they will surely be better off than a Jew who flagrantly violates the law as a Gentile (without law) who follows the spirit of the law.
It sounds like the point would be something like those who are ignorant of the law can actually be far more justified by the law than those who are knowledgable of it but do not do it.
However, if you really want to get an idea of what Paul thinks abou tlaw and justification, just go to the very next chapter:
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."
Romans 3.
It says we are justified by faith through grace.
What does that mean to you?
Originally posted by @philokaliaNearly everything the justification by works radical legalists say is dismantled piece by piece in the book of Romans. They must resent Paul quite a bit.
Romans 3.
It says we are justified by faith through grace.
What does that mean to you?
I know of Catholics who utterly and openly despise St. Augustine (for the same reason), even though he is an established Saint in the Catholic Church!!
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Good posts on Justification by Faith.
Let me speak further to this WONDERFUL word "church" ... So precious.
After speaking to the one church for one locality in Revelation 1:11,12 these responses from Rajk999 -
Overcomers from these churches enter the kingdom of God.
So far I agree. But for those who are justified by faith eternal life is assured in this life time.
Reward in the kingdom age however is still pending.
A man Christian may rest that his eternal redemption is secure. This does not mean he may rest that his REWARD in the coming kingdom age is.
That assurance of reward is only known at the judgment seat of Christ for the saved. And that is precisely what First Corinthians 3:10-17 teaches.
In building the church upon the one foundation of Jesus Christ SALVATION is secure and decided for the audience. But REWARD of the coming kingdom age is not yet decided.
" If anhone's work which he has built upon the foundation [Christ] remains, he will receive a reward." (v.14)
In other words - Salvation is assured but Reward is still pending.
"If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (v.15)
Same matter.
In other words - Salvation is assured but Reward is still pending
Rajk999 continues:
These are the brothers of Christ, body of Christ.
In the seven letters ALL the audience is the of the Body of Christ because all of the audience are constituents of the churches.
Therefore there place in Christ's Body is already decided.
There reward for overcoming in the age of grace is still pending.
At the most He does tell the saints in Philadelphia to hold on to the crown that they already have.
"I come quickly, hold fast what you have that no one take your crown." (Rev. 3:11)
Of the seven churches this one, Philadelphia receives the most positive words from Christ. Interestingly, she is not filled with spiritual giants. But she is of "brotherly love".
She has a little strength but is faithful with love among the brotherhood. Very interesting. See? The word 'church" can be so lovely!
" ... because you have a little strength and have kept My word and have not denied My name." (v.8b)
The tone is "What you have just HOLD ON to." Yet even this exhortation means reward is still a pending matter.
"He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go our anymore ..." (v.12)
Meaning that in the millennial he is so solidly built into the church as to be a pillar, a human pillar. Nothing can ever isolate him, knock him out, draw him away, separate him anymore.
What a reward and enjoyment of the church.
I could say more. But the main point here is that eternal life is secured because the audience are of the churches. Reward is still to be determined. The most positive church is only urged to keep on keeping in the kingdom living they practice in the age of grace.
Hold on to your crown which is already in your possession.
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But not all overcome.
It evident that whoever HEARS what the Spirit is speaking to the churches and responds WILL overcome. It is assumed that SOME will heed and SOME will not.
Those who respond will overcome. That is still pending.
Their eternal life and eternal redemption is not pending. That has been decided in the affirmative already.
In the seven letters to overcome is a matter of enjoying a reward in the coming millennial kingdom.
Further objection.
Within these churches there are some who are not brothers of Christ or Christ sheep.
The fact that before Christ and God each church is a golden lampstand means her standing is of God's nature. Today we may make mistakes and think an unbeliever is part of a church. Jesus Christ makes no such mistakes. ONLY believers who are regenerated are constituents of the churches. The Lord knows those who are his. And let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness (Second Timothy 2:19) .
These will face
- removal from the book of life
There is the possibility that the defeated Christian will have his name erased from the book of life.
"He who overcomes will be clothed in white garments, and I shall by no means erase his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (3:5)
This is the temporary erasing because he is defeated and not prepared to enjoy the reward of living in the coming millennial kingdom.
It is not a permanent removal so as to lose eternal redemption. It is a temporary erasing.
For example, the twelve tribes of Israel included Dan. But the name of that tribe was temporarily dropped from the list of the twelve tribes because of their idolatry. Yet as to a time following this discipline the name of Dan again appeared afterward.
The footnote in the Recovery Version on Revelation 7:6 explains why Dan was left out (erased) from the list of twelve tribes because of their idolatry. (my bolding)
In the account here, as in 1 Chron. 2--9, the tribe of Dan was omitted because of its idolatry (Judg. 18:30-31; 1 Kings 12:29-30; 2 Kings 10:29; cf. Gen. 49:17). However, Dan will still be counted during the millennium (Ezek. 48:1) because Jacob's blessing was upon him, so that through the Lord's salvation Dan will still be included as one of the tribes (Gen. 49:16-18).
See Online Recovery Version -
http://online.recoveryversion.bible/FootNotes.asp?FNtsID=8867
A temporary removal of Dan's name occurs in God's divine record. Yet pertaining to eternity it appears again.
The footnote in the Recovery Version on Revelation 3:5 says: (with my spacing and bolding)
53 The entire verse is the Lord's promise to the overcomers. It will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom after the Lord comes back. That a name is erased out of the book of life indicates that that name has already been written in the book of life. The book of life is a divine record of the names of those who partake of the blessings that God has prepared for them. The names of all the saints chosen by God and predestinated to partake of these blessings are written in this book (Luke 10:20).
These blessings are in three stages: (1) in the church, (2) in the millennial kingdom, and (3) in eternity. The blessings in the stage of the church, such as forgiveness, redemption, regeneration, eternal life, the divine nature, etc., are the initial portions. All God's chosen ones whose names are written in the book of life have a share in these initial portions to begin their spiritual life. If they cooperate with God's supplying grace, they will mature in life in the church age, and this earlier maturity in life will constitute a prize with which the Lord will reward them at His coming back. That prize will be the entrance into the millennial kingdom and participation in the divine blessings in that stage, such as the joy and rest of the Lord (Matt. 25:21, 23; Heb. 4:9-11), the reign over the nations (2:26-27; 20:4, 6), etc., which God has prepared as an incentive for His chosen ones to go on with Him in the church age.
However, many of His chosen ones, after receiving His forgiveness, redemption, eternal life, divine nature, etc., will not cooperate with His grace and will not go on with Him. Hence, they are unable to mature in life in the church age and thus will not be ready at the Lord's coming back to enter into the millennial kingdom and share in the divine blessings of that age as a prize. Therefore, during the millennial kingdom their names will be erased from the book of life. After being disciplined by the Lord and growing in life unto maturity during the millennial kingdom, they will share in the divine blessings in the stage of eternity, such as the eternal priesthood with God's eternal presence, the eternal kingship (22:3-5), the New Jerusalem, the tree of life (22:14), the water of life (22:17), etc. At that time their names should again be written in the book of life. This means that all God's chosen ones whose names are written in the book of life and who have been brought into the participation of the divine blessings in the stage of the church "shall by no means perish forever," (John 10:28); that is, they shall by no means lose the divine blessings of eternity. But some, those who do not cooperate with the Lord in the church age, will be dispensationally disciplined by the Lord during the millennial kingdom and will miss the divine blessings in that stage.
http://online.recoveryversion.bible/FootNotes.asp?FNtsID=8751
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- having their candlestick moved
This warning is the the church in Ephesus. It means to lose the testimony. It does not mean to lose eternal redemption or eternal life.
Many a defeated Christian and defeated congregation for that matter has had their testimony removed, dimmed, darkened. This was a matter of losing their shining before the world.
This was not a matter of them losing eternal life.
"Remember therefore where you have fallen from and repent and do the first works; but if not, I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place, unless you repent. " (Rev. 2:5)
To lose one's shining testimony is a suffering to the lover of Christ. It does not mean that Christian's gift of eternal life is revoked.
The GIFT of God is eternal life.
Not the LOAN of God is eternal life.
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07 Jun 18
- being burned of the second death
To the church in Smyrna there is the warning that some who cave in under persecution could be hurt by the second death.
For years I thought that this was TOO HARD of Jesus to say this to the suffering church under persecution. Then one day I realized that His grace is so sufficient that the greater the opposition the greater the supply of His victorious grace.
Not all Christians are called to have to suffer such intense persecution. But this HURT of the second death is the furthest extremity of the WIDE scope of possible remedial things God could have a defeated saint go through in the millennial kingdom.
The words in the following passage potentially cover a scope of possibilities that only God knows He can administer.
"If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, BUT ... he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (v.15)
The point is that "he will suffer loss" is general. It could include a very wide scope of things Christ could do.
How much loss?
How much suffering?
These are left unspecified.
Saved, yet so as through fire?
What could this mean?
It is general. Its scope of possibilities is in the hands of Jesus.
A wordly judge has many options to correct an offender. Why would we expect that the Divine Judge would have His hands tied to only be able to administer one discipline.