Originally posted by PinkFloydThere are two ways of looking at this. One the one hand he chooses us as we have no free will. The other is to say he chooses us because he knows the desires of our heart and what our free will would be if given a choice. I choose the latter.
I see a "big picture" problem here. In Sunday School, I was taught that we don't choose God---He chooses Us!
To elaborate on whodey's post, here is some brief history of protestant doctrine.
Martin Luther, of course, founded the Protestant church.
After him, the next major reformer was John Calvin. The Baptist church was originally based on the Calvinist doctrine. But since there is no headquarters or real organization in the Baptist church, each church will often have different doctrines. Calvin preached that God is all-knowing, from beginning to end of time. He knows every detail of our lives before we are born, and, therefore, we are PREDESTINED. Our names are written in the Book of Life before we are born. They also believe in the principle of "once saved, always saved." This means that if you are saved, you cannot become unsaved. This is partially based on the reasoning that you cannot be saved unless you are predestined for Heaven, and you cannot be unsaved for the same reason. So God "chooses" those who he knows will choose him. All others do not have the opportunity for salvation. Calvin preached that this did not violate God's justice because he know our hearts before we are born, and all who would have accepted, God "chose".
The next reformer was John Wesley. The Wesleyan, or Armenian, doctrine is followed by the Methodist, Nazarene, and others. The Pentecostal doctrine is based on Wesley, but they then further reformed it to emphasize the importance of charismata (prophesy, speaking in tongues, etc). Wesleyan's believe that salvation is a free gift, free because we could never earn it. They believe man has FREE WILL to accept or deny the gift, by believing in or denying Jesus. They also believe that if someone believes, but then falls away from God, they can lose salvation. They believe that, while God still knows the future, every man has the opportunity for salvation.
Sorry this is long, but hope that cleared things up.
Biblically we are confronted with two facts. On the one hand we are told that it is God's will that none should perish thus eliminating the possibility that he created us to reject him. The other fact is that God knows what path we will choose as seen with Judas and the 12 disciples. It was prophesied well in advance that he would go down the wrong path. Peter is also an example of God knowing our actions before they occur. After all, Christ told Peter that he would deny him three times before the rooster crowed even though Peter fanatically denied that he would ever do so.
The only solution to this apparent contradiction is to say that we choose our own destiny and, at the same time, God merely knows what that destiny will entail down to the last detail.
Originally posted by whodeyActually, this means we have no free will, since we cannot do anything that god doesn't already know we'll do. Since he is eternal and the creator of everything, it leaves him looking a lot like a maker of clockwork devices, so happy in himself when they do what they are designed to.
Biblically we are confronted with two facts. On the one hand we are told that it is God's will that none should perish thus eliminating the possibility that he created us to reject him. The other fact is that God knows what path we will choose as seen with Judas and the 12 disciples. It was prophesied well in advance that he would go down the wrong path. ...[text shortened]... and, at the same time, God merely knows what that destiny will entail down to the last detail.
Originally posted by scottishinnzSo are you saying an all powerful and all knowing God cannot create free will within us even though he may know the outcome?
Actually, this means we have no free will, since we cannot do anything that god doesn't already know we'll do. Since he is eternal and the creator of everything, it leaves him looking a lot like a maker of clockwork devices, so happy in himself when they do what they are designed to.
Originally posted by whodeyHe can know it when it can be known, that does not mean He cannot
So are you saying an all powerful and all knowing God cannot create free will within us even though he may know the outcome?
give free will, neither does it mean the process of creating us did away
with our ability to do as we will either.
Kelly
Originally posted by whodeyThat depends on whether you believe such an entity must be internally logically consistent.
So are you saying an all powerful and all knowing God cannot create free will within us even though he may know the outcome?
If the answer is yes, God must be internally consistent, then the answer is no.
Originally posted by scottishinnzSo you are saying it is impossible to be logically consistent and still provide creation with free will even though he knows the outcome? It is impossible for an all powerful God?
That depends on whether you believe such an entity must be internally logically consistent.
If the answer is yes, God must be internally consistent, then the answer is no.
Originally posted by whodeyIt is not impossible for an all powerful God.
So you are saying it is impossible to be logically consistent and still provide creation with free will even though he knows the outcome? It is impossible for an all powerful God?
However,
it is impossible for an all powerful God working within the confines of logic.
Originally posted by whodeyIf I'm understand his objection he is saying creating a free will being
So you are saying it is impossible to be logically consistent and still provide creation with free will even though he knows the outcome? It is impossible for an all powerful God?
is like drawing a square circle nothing more if you know all things,
The objection being, if you know all things how you build us you
knowing what we will do if you build us this way or that, therefore as
soon as you create us, you set our futures in the stone so to speak
by the very building and how we are made.
I agree God cannot draw a square circle, I also believe God can only
know all that can be known as soon as it can be known, which in my
opinion allows him to create free will beings and have all the insight
there is to have, meaning He will know all there is to know. Having
us around more than likely adds to that by leaps and bounds in
my opinion.
Kelly
edit:
But I could wrong about this too, just my opinion at the moment. 🙂
Originally posted by KellyJayI gottcha. 😉
If I'm understand his objection he is saying creating a free will being
is like drawing a square circle nothing more if you know all things,
The objection being, if you know all things how you build us you
knowing what we will do if you build us this way or that, therefore as
soon as you create us, you set our futures in the stone so to speak
by the ...[text shortened]... now. Having
us around more than likely adds to that by leaps and bounds in
my opinion.
Kelly
Perhaps you are right, however, just because one cannot logically work out a problem does not mean that it cannot be done, rather, it simply means that you may not have the intellect and/or knowledge to do so. After all, how does one give another free will let alone create their physical body from dust? Logical, perhaps but how so?
Originally posted by whodeyGood point.
I gottcha. 😉
Perhaps you are right, however, just because one cannot logically work out a problem does not mean that it cannot be done, rather, it simply means that you may not have the intellect and/or knowledge to do so. After all, how does one give another free will let alone create their physical body from dust? Logical, perhaps but how so?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI'm sure that not everyone would agree with me. Some would bodly say that if I can't work out something logically then it can't be done. However, we all were children one day and at that time had limitations in our reasoning ability compared to our further intellectual development as an adult, however, once we reach our zenith as an adult in terms of reasoning abilities we assume that we have "arrived" so to speak. Nothing then is beyond our reasoning abilities it seems. Especially if we are gifted in that area compared to the averagae person with degrees and certifications to go along with it.
Good point.
Kelly
Originally posted by whodeyIt's not that I can't work it out logically. In that way, I have nothing to do with it. The simple fact is that having an omniscient being who knows what you WILL do, and then claiming free will (that you could do anything else) is logically IMPOSSIBLE. The two are directly contradictory statements, and both cannot be true, since they are mutually exclusive.
I gottcha. 😉
Perhaps you are right, however, just because one cannot logically work out a problem does not mean that it cannot be done, rather, it simply means that you may not have the intellect and/or knowledge to do so. After all, how does one give another free will let alone create their physical body from dust? Logical, perhaps but how so?