Deceiver of the whole world

@ghost-of-a-duke said
That doesn't really relate to what I wrote.

Region and the defining evil?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Yes. Scroll up to see the passage. (2nd post).

There is no 1 or 2 Th 9, you leave off a chapter reference I assume.

@kellyjay said
Region and the defining evil?

Not sure what that means.

You asked me to give an example where evil is not done by someone or to someone?' - I think you must have misread what I wrote as I never said people didn't do 'evil' to each other, but that they acted of their own accord (not as a result of satantic influence etc).

And I use 'evil' in the way defined by FMF, not in the way it is presented through the prism of religion.

@kellyjay said
There is no 1 or 2 Th 9, you leave off a chapter reference I assume.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

Does this mis-paste change the passage any?

'They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.'

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Perhaps that will be the outcome of this discussion.

Yes. For example: what might be my response to your statement above? Will my response be a reflection of what your words mean, as you meant them, or will I say something that makes you wonder if I understand what you meant?

So I say this now, as a contribution to the flow of thought relative to my post you replied to as you did above, 'order of thought is contingent on what its predicated on.'

What do I mean?

This will get complicated.

@secondson said
Yes. For example: what might be my response to your statement above? Will my response be a reflection of what your words mean, as you meant them, or will I say something that makes you wonder if I understand what you meant?

So I say this now, as a contribution to the flow of thought relative to my post you replied to as you did above, 'order of thought is contingent on what its predicated on.'

What do I mean?

This will get complicated.

Well, this is how it usually works. I put a cumbersome elephant in a dark church and each of you Christian chaps reach in and grab a different part of the elephant, each convinced he has a grasp of the entire animal.

Edit: Apart from Sonship, who googles what Witness Lee has to say about elephants.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Well, this is how it usually works. I put a cumbersome elephant in a dark church and each of you Christian chaps reach in and grab a different part of the elephant, each convinced he has a grasp of the entire animal.

No. That's not what I meant.

I'll try again.

'Thoughts', 'ideas', 'concepts', in our minds, are ordered according to what they are predicated on.

Ordered, as in each thought follows sequentially according to a precept first conceived.

For example: (let's jump to the big one) Truth. When the thought, idea, concept "truth" first comes to mind, what then might be the logical, rational and reasonable sequential thought progression that might follow to arrive at an understanding of what truth is?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Not sure what that means.

You asked me to give an example where evil is not done by someone or to someone?' - I think you must have misread what I wrote as I never said people didn't do 'evil' to each other, but that they acted of their own accord (not as a result of satantic influence etc).

And I use 'evil' in the way defined by FMF, not in the way it is presented through the prism of religion.

I don't care what FMF's views are on evil, if he is your source for the definition have at it.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
2 Thessalonians 1:9

Does this mis-paste change the passage any?

'They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.'

No, never said it did, but when you left that 1 off it looked like you were saying chapter 9 to me.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I believe my initial premise, that 'Heaven (in a Christian context) is a state of being in the presence of God, 'is' supported by scripture. Take for example:

“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." (Rev 21:3)


So we have Rev 21:3 - Heaven is a place in the presence of God

And Thessalonians 9 - Hell is a place in the absence of God.

I think one of the things this line of thought should take you is our decisions in this life before God. If being with God is good and being without isn’t in the life to come, then our choices in this life to be with God and be without Him rests with us now, as we respond to God’s call on our lives. If we want no part of God here, do you think God will force us into His presence in the eternal life to come?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Most religions personify evil (making it the work of the devil or Rahu etc).

It is this 'sinister force at work among us' that I refuse to accommodate into my understanding of 'evil' as we encounter it in our lives. If a human does something 'bad' or 'evil' then they have done that of their own accord, due to a deficiency of 'goodness' inside of them. 'Evil' is n ...[text shortened]... ight. It is not the case that a malevolent demon has intentionally removed that light from the room.

While I agree that there is no being like the Devil or Satan or Rahu, etc. that is purely malevolent and dedicated to maximizing the amount of evil that people do, we as people are extremely influenced by other people around us.

A bad leader enables the worst tendencies of his or her followers; they normalize bad behavior. It is like US President Trump normalizing openly racist statements and behavior. At an extreme, the wrongdoers punish their opponents for not playing along, as they did in the cases of US slavery and Hitler's eugenics.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Darkness is the absence of light. 'Evil' therefore is not a thing in itself, but the absence of goodness.

God is good, and only God is good; according to Jesus, then the absence of God is, therefore, the absence of goodness, making us evil according to this train of thought. Because lacking God in our lives, and I mean that quite literally, means we don’t have the only one that can make us good, God!

If evil is only in the actions of beings, then beings who do evil are, evil beings wouldn't they be?

If God can redeem those who have not God in their lives so that they can have, and if God then sanctifies those that receive God so that they conform into His image, wouldn't this deal completely with evil no matter how we define it?

@kellyjay said
I don't care what FMF's views are on evil, if he is your source for the definition have at it.

He provided a good definition in this thread, which is why I refer to it. (Of course, if you read the thread you would know that).

@kellyjay said
I don't care what FMF's views are on evil, if he is your source for the definition have at it.

I think you do care actually...

@ghost-of-a-duke said
He provided a good definition in this thread, which is why I refer to it. (Of course, if you read the thread you would know that).

I read the posts that interest me.