Churches and Taxes

Originally posted by 667joe
No, the law was not violated, only the spirit of the law.

In your first post, you said "[the pastor] clearly violated the separation of church and state". That's what caused the confusion. Are you now retracting that claim?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
In your first post, you said "[the pastor] clearly violated the separation of church and state". That's what caused the confusion. Are you now retracting that claim?

Pastor Warren clearly violated the spirit of the law.

Originally posted by 667joe
Of course pastors can vote, they must keep their political views out of church business, and they should not say that their religious perspective favors one candidate or disfavors another. Once they cross that line, they have violated the separation of church and state, and their church should be taxed.

So you accept that he can exercise the democratic right to vote but, rather contradictorily, deny that he should be able to exercise other democratic rights (re free speech and association)?

Originally posted by 667joe
Pastor Warren clearly violated the spirit of the law.

And what is the spirit of the law? In my book, the spirit of the law is to be free. The founding Fathers in no way wanted a national religion to do the states bidding and last I checked pastor Warren was never an elected official.

So how is Mr. Warren not free to do as he did? In fact, he is free to do anything he darn well likes just as yourself. The only catch, however, is his tax exempt status. If he uses his position to raise support for any particular candidate, he can and should loose his tax exempt status. That is ALL!! They would not escort him to jail, nor fine him, nor should they.

Just because someone may be in a religious position of some kind in no way should mean they should have less rights than you or I. This assumption is fascist and absurd.

Originally posted by 667joe
Pastor Warren clearly violated the spirit of the law.

That's a completely different claim than the first one, so I'll take that as a "yes".

Separation of church and state was not intended to stop people of faith, even pastors, from participating in political dialog. The purpose is to stop the government from endorsing any particular religion.

The purpose is to stop the government from endorsing any particular religion.[/b]

And also to keep religion from endorsing any particular candidate. Separation of church and state means government must stay out of religion, and religion must stay out of government. It does not mean that government must stay out of religion, but religion can meddle(its ugly head) in politics>

Originally posted by 667joe
And also to keep religion from endorsing any particular candidate. Separation of church and state means government must stay out of religion, and religion must stay out of government. It does not mean that government must stay out of religion, but religion can meddle(its ugly head) in politics>

No, the first amendment only states that Congress must not make a law respecting an establishment of a religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof. There is nothing in it that stops a church or religion from endorsing a political candidate.

If you are correct, you ought to be able to show us the law that supports your claim.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
No, the first amendment only states that Congress must not make a law respecting an establishment of a religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof. There is nothing in it that stops a church or religion from endorsing a political candidate.

If you are correct, you ought to be able to show us the law that supports your claim.

Check the IRS tax code.

Originally posted by 667joe
And also to keep religion from endorsing any particular candidate.

Why can't they? Why would a democratic country prohibit religious contributions to political life? Surely it would be undemocratic country if its constitution prevented religious pastors from even asking questions of politicians .

Originally posted by 667joe
Religion and politics don't mix. Any Church that meddles in politics should be taxed. For example, the paster who asked McCain and Obama religious
questions should have his congregation pay income taxes because he clearly violated the separation of church and state. Our constitution states there shall be no religious test to hold public office. Obama and McCain should not have lowered themselves to his grilling.

The last time I checked I payed federal income tax, state income tax, double fica tax, self employment tax, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, and tithe. There are a few more things that could be considered a tax. Being a church member does not get me a tax exempt status. P.S. I guess that you mean that the church should lose its tax exempt status and not the congregation.

Originally posted by 667joe
Check the IRS tax code.

What? You have nothing from the constitution? And all the tax code does is remove tax-exemption if a church officially endorses or raises funds for a political party or candidate, right? That's not a prohibition, nor does it stop any religious group from 'meddling in politics'.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
What? You have nothing from the constitution? And all the tax code does is remove tax-exemption if a church officially endorses or raises funds for a political party or candidate, right? That's not a prohibition, nor does it stop any religious group from 'meddling in politics'.

It turns out you are exactly correct! Therefore churches should pay taxes like everyone else. After all, every dollar churches don't pay, the rest of us have to. This should include real estate taxes. Thanks for making my position easier.

Originally posted by 667joe
It turns out you are exactly correct! Therefore churches should pay taxes like everyone else. After all, every dollar churches don't pay, the rest of us have to. This should include real estate taxes. Thanks for making my position easier.

A church is classified as a non profit organization. As such it enjoys a tax exempt status as do all non profit organizations. There are several non profit organizations that are political.

Originally posted by 667joe
It turns out you are exactly correct! Therefore churches should pay taxes like everyone else. After all, every dollar churches don't pay, the rest of us have to. This should include real estate taxes. Thanks for making my position easier.

Huh? That's a complete non-sequitur.

I'm afraid that your position is 'easy' only in your own mind, friend.

Originally posted by gambit3
A church is classified as a non profit organization. As such it enjoys a tax exempt status as do all non profit organizations. There are several non profit organizations that are political.

I agree. A church is a non prophet organization.