22 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterYou people are a joke. If Jesus wanted to say "you will never die AFTER THE RESURRECTION" he would have said it. How can you just add words willynilly into someone you supposedly believe is God's mouth without batting an eye? He said exactly what he meant; YOU will never die though your body will.
John 11:25 and 26a
(25) Jesus said unto her [Lazarus’ sister Martha], I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.
Verse 26a is sometimes wrenched out of its context to show that no one who believes in Jesus Christ really dies ...[text shortened]... shall live.” Thus whosoever lives and believes in Christ will never die after the resurrection.
22 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterGonna take me awhile, since I want to get at the various Jewish understandings of this—i.e., what might’ve been Jesus’ understanding as a Jew… A key here, I think, is that the Sadducees did not believe in resurrection at all, while the Pharisees did—and, the Sadducees also did not accept the oral Torah, whereas the Pharisees did (as does modern rabbinical Judaism).
FYI...Check these as well .
Ps 88:10
10 Will You work wonders for the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise You? Selah
(NKJ)
Ps 115:17
17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor any who go down into silence.
(NKJ)
Eccl 9:5-7
5 For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of the ...[text shortened]... ith joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already accepted your works.
(NKJ)
Meanwhile, given that Judaism is a highly interpretive (hermeneutical) religion, and that Jesus did not stand with the Sadducees, I will provisionally stand on my original interpretation—that Jesus was giving his “torah” (teaching) with the conjunction of “God of Abraham,” etc., with “God not of the dead but the living.”
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23 Nov 05
Originally posted by vistesdFair enough. You are right about the Sadducees not believing in resurection.
Gonna take me awhile, since I want to get at the various Jewish understandings of this—i.e., what might’ve been Jesus’ understanding as a Jew… A key here, I think, is that the Sadducees did not believe in resurrection at all, while the Pharisees did—and, the Sadducees also did not accept the oral Torah, whereas the Pharisees did (as does modern rabbinical J ...[text shortened]... hing) with the conjunction of “God of Abraham,” etc., with “God not of the dead but the living.”
Paul used this knowledge in Acts 17.
You say something about Jesus understanding as a Jew. Perhaps this is where we differ, since I believe Jesus was always in touch with His Father, God. He always did the Fathers will.
John 5:19
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
(NKJ)
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by desertmonkYou say something about Jesus understanding as a Jew. Perhaps this is where we differ, since I believe Jesus was always in touch with His Father, God. He always did the Fathers will.
though christianity is not christ..And an individual most be able to separate the true message from the false man made philosophy that we now have. JC message is more revelant now than every. He spoke of peace love and unity. who would love to see this come about?
Well put. This is exactly where we will differ, and reach impasse. I do appreciate the "homework assignment" though...
🙂
23 Nov 05
I agree you have fake hindu's and buddhist that are violent and as evil as any false christian. And most of these are vegan! i mean when you have monks killing monks ...I mean thats not in the teachings of buddha......
so yes christianity as religious movement is a joke...but that is not Christ fault.....I mean even peter went crazy and cut a man's ear when they tried to arrest jesus. what did jesus say......"if you live by the sword you will dy by the sword.." cause and effect. for every action there will be a reaction...
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by no1marauderHell is a place where spirits dwell. In every example that CHRIST gave of hell, it seems that hell is a place the spirit is awake. Hell seems to be divided into sections. A place of torment for the sinner and a place of comfort for the saved. That seems to be the way that JESUS CHRIST describes it.
HOW was Abraham talking to the Rich Man in Hell (NOT HIS GRAVE) if Abraham was "dead in his grave" and his "spirit was asleep"? Just answer that question, blindfaith.
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by vistesdThe ones that have died as Believers of GOD. They are in there graves but they are spiritualy awake, waiting for the call of GOD. The call that will bring them to GOD to recieve their heavenly reward.
Matthew 22:
31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God,
32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is God not of the dead, but of
the living."
EDIT: He is "the God of Abraham;" he is God "not of the dead." No.1 is right...
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by no1marauderYou do have valid points. they are dead as the world knows it, in their graves. But they are spiritualy awake. In all the Teachings that CHRIST gave. He was teaching that there was some awareness in hell.
Really?? Where does Jesus use the word "resurrection" in reference to anybody but himself? Where does he say that people are "dead in their grave" until the Resurrection?
it also true that JESUS CHRIST did speak of the resurrection. And He gave the understanding of very clearly.
MATTHEW 22:22-33, Did HE not clearly describe the Ressurrection. How it will be in heaven. He was speaking inanswer to a question that pertained to the ressurrection of mankind. Yes HE did say HE was not the GOD of the dead. But was HE not the first to be Ressurrected. Did HE not speak of those that were alive in their graves. That had not been ressurected and could not be ressurreted until HE was. Now we do not know how many if any were taken to heaven with HIM, if any. Or are they waiting to be called to be with HIM when HE returns.
LUKE 20:27-38, The teachings here also show that there is ressurrection of mankind do they not? HE even makes a statement that ................."To say that the Lord is some persons God means that person is alive, not dead! So from God's point of view, all men are living." Could that not mean that those that are in their graves that their bodies are dead, but their spirit is still alive. Could this not also be possible from the of the creation of man. And the Lord formed man of the dust of the of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living soul. GENESIS 2:7
Would that not mean that the dust of man returns to the dust, and the Living soul of man returns back to God. GENEISIS 2:7 in it's self is a very good discussion point.
JOHN 5:19-47 These teachings that CHRIST gave are even more clearer when HE says.........................."Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.................."Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in their graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, until the ressurrection of life; and they that have evil unto the ressurrection of damnation."...............
Does not CHRIST clearly say that "those in their graves" so those that are in their graves are waiting for the call of GOD and their Ressurrection.
MATTHEW 25:31-46, Could this also be the teaching once again that aat the Call of GOD all of mankind whether they are in their graves or still walking the earth. There will be a time to come when all mankind is before GOD to be judged.
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by no1marauderThat is where the teachings of many Denominations come into play. Some teach that when you die you go directly into heaven. There is no waiting period. At you last breath you are on your way.
John 11: 25-26: 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die.
"Shall NEVER die". That seems to say that immediately after death the righteous go to Heaven, doesn't it??
Some Denomination teach that we are asleep until the call of GOD. Upon that call all who are asleep in their graves come to be with GOD.
The real difference is, the difference of understanding. We donot know how long after we die are we called to be before the LORD. We donot know if we come one by one or as a group as a whole. All we know is GOD is going to call us. I do believe that both could understood as what THE WORD OF GOD, teaches. They both are the same.
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by no1marauderRight, The part of our body of dust dies, and returns to the earth. But that part of us that is a Living soul, returns to GOD.
You people are a joke. If Jesus wanted to say "you will never die AFTER THE RESURRECTION" he would have said it. How can you just add words willynilly into someone you supposedly believe is God's mouth without batting an eye? He said exactly what he meant; YOU will never die though your body will.
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by desertmonkChristianity is about CHRIST. Though I would like to ask you if you would like to discuss, where JESUS CHRIST, taught peace, love, and unity in the vein of understanding that statement? Which is apart of the 1960's and 1970's Great Revival. That also would be a good discussion.
though christianity is not christ..And an individual most be able to separate the true message from the false man made philosophy that we now have. JC message is more revelant now than every. He spoke of peace love and unity. who would love to see this come about?
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by desertmonkThat would mean that most of the pretend to be christians are in trouble.
I agree you have fake hindu's and buddhist that are violent and as evil as any false christian. And most of these are vegan! i mean when you have monks killing monks ...I mean thats not in the teachings of buddha......
so yes christianity as religious movement is a joke...but that is not Christ fault.....I mean even peter went crazy and cut a man' ...[text shortened]... word you will dy by the sword.." cause and effect. for every action there will be a reaction...