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Originally posted by robbie carrobieSpecifics Robbie.
No one has claimed that it's been fabricated in order to start a religion. The actual claim is that it's of Pagan origin which has been incontrovertibly demonstrated on this very forum. How will you explain the trinity of Egypt or Babaylon or Sumeria. Are they also of divine inspiration?
Give me a specific name of a pagan deity who was endowed with trinitarian characteristics.
Come out from hiding behind "Egypt or Babylon or Sumeria". I like names of old civilizations as much as the next guy. Which god ? ? ?
Specifics ?
I'm out here on a limb now.
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Originally posted by wolfgang59How dare you step in to rescue Robbie. He's a theist.
Brahman do? (Hinduism)
= Brahma + Vishnu + Shiva.
Wicca.
The Trinity of Maiden + Mother + Crone
I want to get his agreement on your specimens first.
Robbie, do you agree here with wolfgang's samples of Trinity like Pagan Deities ?
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16 Dec 13
Originally posted by wolfgang59Perhaps Robbie wants to hold back and see how your Pagan trinities works.
Brahman do? (Hinduism)
= Brahma + Vishnu + Shiva.
Wicca.
The Trinity of Maiden + Mother + Crone
So be it. Here is a statement I found on Hinduism
Hindus view cosmic activity of the Supreme Being as comprised of three tasks: creation, preservation, and dissolution and recreation. Hindus associate these three cosmic tasks with the three deities, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Lord Brahma brings forth the creation and represents the creative principle of the Supreme Being. Lord Vishnu maintains the universe and represents the eternal principle of preservation. Lord Shiva represents the principle of dissolution and recreation. These three deities together form the Hindu Trinity.
One must clearly understand that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are not three independent deities. They represent the same power (the Supreme Being), but in three different aspects. Just as a man may be called a doctor, father or husband based upon the tasks he performs, the Supreme Being is called Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva when conceived as performing the three different cosmic tasks of creation, preser-vation, and dissolution/recreation. "The oneness of the three gods Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva is brought out by the mystic symbol AUM where 'A' represents Vishnu, 'U' Shiva and 'M' Brahma."
Hindu religion is often labeled as a religion of 330 million gods. This misunderstanding arises when people fail to grasp the symbolism of the Hindu pantheon. According to the Hindu scriptures, living beings are not apart from God, since He lives in each and every one of them in the form of atman (BG 10.39). Thus each living being is a unique manifestation of God. In ancient times it was believed that there were 330 million living beings. This gave rise to the idea of 330 million deities or gods. Actually, this vast number of gods could not have been possibly worshipped, since 330 million names could not have been designed for them. The number 330 million was simply used to give a symbolic expression to the fundamental Hindu doctrine that God lives in the hearts of all living beings.
Notice that the term used was "three deities"
Hindus associate these three cosmic tasks with the three deities, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
Three dieties amounts to three gods. Three gods as applied to the Father - Son - Holy Spirit would amount to three Gods. A teaching of three Gods would be defined not as trinitarian but Tritheism - the belief that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three Gods.
The Trinity is one God - Father/Son/Holy Spirit.
The author says -
These three deities together form the Hindu Trinity.
A proper presentation of the Trinity would usually not say anything like
"These three [gods]" form the Christian Trinity .... or "These three deities form the Christian Trinity"
Though to be fair some might use the phrase hypostasis.
If it were me I would simply say "These Three ________ make up the Trinity." I would leave the blank blank or simply say "These Three make up the Trinity."
In the second paragraph what appears to me is a similar teaching to the other extreme opposite of Tritheism [three Gods]. The second paragraph reminds me of Modalism.
Modalism is not theological grappling with the mystery of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit. But it says the three are modes which are not simultaneously in existence but follow one another.
Now I am not well verses in Hinduism. But what I would like you to prove to me is that all three of the Hindu deities are ETERNALLY existing. For in Christian teaching the Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Spirit is eternal - always WAS.
This explanation -
One must clearly understand that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are not three independent deities. They represent the same power (the Supreme Being), but in three different aspects. Just as a man may be called a doctor, father or husband based upon the tasks he performs, the Supreme Being is called Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva when conceived as performing the three different cosmic tasks of creation, preser-vation, and dissolution/recreation. "
In Christian teaching the Father lives in the Son and the Son lives in the Father. So this is the matter of co-inherance. The Three of the Triune God are never separate though they are distinct. Within each lives the other.
And I wish I could write more but I am suddenly called away.
17 Dec 13
Originally posted by sonshipNo.
Do you know Hindu sacred literature well ?
If you know it well then I have a few questions for you so that I can conduct a comparison.
My knowledge of Hinduism is sufficient for the requirements of teaching
Religious Education up to Year 6 in English State Schools - that's all.
But I do know that a Trinity is not unique to Christianity.
Three is the magic number you know!
Originally posted by sonshipIt is not necessary to demonstrate whether a pagan diety has, in your words, 'trinitarian characteristics', to prove that a trinity really is a trinity and of pagan origin, is it jaywill. After all, we are interested not in the characteristics of your trinity but in the historicity of its development, never the less,
Specifics Robbie.
Give me a specific name of a pagan deity who was endowed with [b]trinitarian characteristics.
Come out from hiding behind "Egypt or Babylon or Sumeria". I like names of old civilizations as much as the next guy. Which god ? ? ?
Specifics ?
I'm out here on a limb now.[/b]
The Great Egyptian temple at Karnak has a pagan triad, Amon-Ra, Ramses II, and Mut,
indeed concerning the Egyptian trinities and their characteristics, we read,
In the Leiden hymns, Amun, Ptah, and Re are regarded as a trinity who are distinct gods but with unity in plurality. "The three gods are one yet the Egyptian elsewhere insists on the separate identity of each of the three." This unity in plurality is expressed in one text:
"All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, whom none equals. He who hides his name as Amun, he appears to the face as Re, his body is Ptah."
let us compare it to,
The Athanasian Creed: ‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’ In this Trinity . . . the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.”—The Catholic Encyclopedia.
rather telling I would say the only difference being whether the trinity is expressed as a single entity or a plurality.
17 Dec 13
Originally posted by wolfgang59Christmas is a great time of year for most and I always enjoy being off work and consuming good food with family and friends. We have a tree with some other decorations and enjoy giving and receiving gifts. Christmas has absolutely no spiritual or religious bearing on my thinking, beliefs or activities at is time of year.
Do you put up any of these at Yuletide?
Holly
Ivy
Fir tree
Mistletoe
Why?
17 Dec 13
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou don't even allow your children to celebrate their birthdays, so it is of no surprise that your sanctimonious, misanthropic and self righteous view of yourself and your corporation would preclude them from partaking in any Christmas joy that may be available at this time of year.
umm Jehovahs Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas because of its pagan origins so as to keep ourselves, 'without spot', from the world. Please note this does not make us better, merely different. My wife being from India (peace be upon it) often makes Indian food we send to our neighbours, which they delight in. You really should research your prejud ...[text shortened]... are a pagan masquerading as a Christian, how is that going to work out for you, long term? hmmmm
Originally posted by divegeesterThank you Jesus, the spirit of warmth and love you display draws me towards you like a warm fire on a wintry evening. Do you also approve of other pagan festivals? you know sucking little children in with gifts of sweets and other treats in your time honoured fashion? Lets have a look,
You don't even allow your children to celebrate their birthdays, so it is of no surprise that your sanctimonious, misanthropic and self righteous view of yourself and your corporation would preclude them from partaking in any Christmas joy that may be available at this time of year.
ah yes, you celebrate the festival to the goddess Astarte, known to you as Easter, sucking the little children in with chocolate eggs!
The Pagan festival of Halloween, once again sucking the little children in with candy
and Saturnalia, held this very day, sucking the little children in with gifts and presents, even as the ancient Romans gave thousands of years before.
Thankyou, your methods are time tried and tested! suck the little children in with offerings of sweets, candy and gifts, how cunning.
Once again, reality is not optional, get a reality check!