Originally posted by RJHindswe don't tithe, we never have and funnily enough you are not really regarded as a bastion of truth yourself Jonah.
I don't think the Watchtower Society is well known for telling the truth. They also have many false prophecies under their belt. 😏
Originally posted by robbie carrobieMy perception was that the early Christian leaders could be quite political including soon after the death of Christ, and actually began gaining quite a bit of political power about 300 years later when Constantine converted.
Seeing that we are referring to the matter historically, that is, with regard to the early
Christians and their attitude towards secular government, will you please explain the
relevance of modern denominations and their stance to the issue? To answer your
question I do believe that Christidelphians are also politically neutral, as for others, I
cannot say.
This issue of early Christians and politics reminded me of an older thread earlier this year in which I was wondering about the movie Agora (2009), which I know is a movie for entertainment and not a history class, but it made me think. Excepts of my comments in the thread are below:
I just watched the movie Agora (2009), which takes place in about 300 AD [or about 400 AD?] in Alexandria, Egypt. I was wondering how accurate the characterization of the Christians.
The Christians were gaining power and taking over the city, especially in view of the weakening Roman Empire and with Christianity no longer an outlawed religion, and with the Roman leaders converting to Christianity (many in name only for political convenience and power, and to avoid persecution from the Christians).
I was wondering if the characterization of the Christians was accurate as violent and mobbish, mocking other religions, killing masses of Jewish men, women, and children with crude weapons, destroying the great library in Alexandria, reading scripture from Paul that women should be silent and submissive, and killing as a witch the famous female philosopher (astronomer, mathematician) Hypatia played by Rachel Weisz. (Sorry to give that last part away if you have not watched the movie and may watch it.) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1186830/
The movie depicted the Christian mob ripping and burning the thousands of parchments/scrolls, and yelling that it was "pagan" crap. Supposedly, the Alexandria library was the last large collection of great science and philosophy in the world -- centuries of work. The library was a center of documenting and storing scientific and mathematical progress of humankind.
An essence in the movie was that the Alexandria library was the last comprehensive collection, and if lost, would not be recoverable. The Christian authorities and mob didn't seem to place too much value on it, except to destroy it.
I noticed that the elite, whether of the Christians, pagans, Romans, or later the Jewish elite, all seemed to basically get along, were usually practical, and wanted order. Yet, mistakes by the Jews, pagans, and Romans, combined with the rising power of the Christians, and the vehemence of the Christian mob was just too much.
One of the extended striking scenes of the movie was the Christian mob rushing the library complex, and ripping books, parchments, and scrolls to pieces, and yes also making big piles and burning them, while the rational educated people (pagans) quickly gathered what scrolls and parchments they could save and escaped out the back of the library complex under Roman guard.
The pagans rushing hurriedly around with scrolls and parchments overflowing in their arms, trying to locate and save what they considered the most important documents but with little success, as there was not time to avoid the crazy Christian mob. Centuries of history, math, philosophy, and science gone, in the name of the Christian god.
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=144816&page=1
Originally posted by moon1969Could very well be as that was about the time when other things began to creep into the teachings such as the trinity.
My perception was that the early Christian leaders could be quite political including soon after the death of Christ, and actually began gaining quite a bit of political power about 300 years later when Constantine converted.
So it would make sense that the beliefs and understandings of what Jesus taught, started to get watered down and things he did not teach began to be accepted. This was fortold by Jesus to happen and it started to come on strong during this time.
Originally posted by galveston75The truth of the divine Trinity came under severe attack at this time by heretics like Arius and had to be defended by the Church.
Could very well be as that was about the time when other things began to creep into the teachings such as the trinity.
So it would make sense that the beliefs and understandings of what Jesus taught, started to get watered down and things he did not teach began to be accepted. This was fortold by Jesus to happen and it started to come on strong during this time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius
Originally posted by galveston75Seems like I remember reading that the orthodox christian did create stuff to help themselves retain power.
Could very well be as that was about the time when other things began to creep into the teachings such as the trinity.
So it would make sense that the beliefs and understandings of what Jesus taught, started to get watered down and things he did not teach began to be accepted. This was fortold by Jesus to happen and it started to come on strong during this time.
I point that I wanted to bring out for all to think on in connection with the Witnesses remaining neutral when it comes to fighting in any countries wars.
No Witnesses in any country will ever take up arms in any offensive or defensive actions deemed needed by any government. Most here know that.
But yet we do recieve much condemnation for this and even have been sentenanced to prison and even death for this stand.
But as a result of this stand we take, an important fact is that no Witness from any part of the planet will ever kill you or anyone of your family. EVER.
Many say we would never defend your country? The flip side to this is no Witness will ever attack your country.
For the 100K or so of able bodied young men and women that are JW's that could possible qualify to be in the ranks in the armed services in this country or any other that many think we need to fight in a war, would actually be negated by the fact that probably that same amount would be used from the opposing country in a war.
So if you take all the JW's out of the picture then their army would have that same deficit. And yes we are in almost every country in the world.
It would be great if all other religions would in fact prohibit their young men and women from fighting as that would start to negate the armed forces from most countries and the abilty to fight anyone.
But we know the majority of religions of the world do not honor the Bible's commands not to kill, especially even ones of their own faith.
So I say leave the Witnesses alone as we are not a threat in any form. If the other religions want to fight that is their decision, but the JW's will not and only wish all fighting would cease.
Originally posted by galveston75Even though I am not fully a pacifist myself, I can respect the position.
I point that I wanted to bring out for all to think on in connection with the Witnesses remaining neutral when it comes to fighting in any countries wars.
No Witnesses in any country will ever take up arms in any offensive or defensive actions deemed needed by any government. Most here know that.
But yet we do recieve much condemnation for this a ...[text shortened]... fight that is their decision, but the JW's will not and only wish all fighting would cease.
Originally posted by galveston75I think if a war breaks out that all Jehovah's Witnesses should be put in prison to make sure they remain neutral, because they are big liars that can't be trusted.
I point that I wanted to bring out for all to think on in connection with the Witnesses remaining neutral when it comes to fighting in any countries wars.
No Witnesses in any country will ever take up arms in any offensive or defensive actions deemed needed by any government. Most here know that.
But yet we do recieve much condemnation for this a ...[text shortened]... fight that is their decision, but the JW's will not and only wish all fighting would cease.
Originally posted by RJHindsAnd if your god "your government" tells you to kill us I'm sure you'd be the first in line to take the first shot wouldn't you, you fine Christian?
I think if a war breaks out that all Jehovah's Witnesses should be put in prison to make sure they remain neutral, because they are big liars that can't be trusted.