cartwheels

Originally posted by twhitehead
But it wasn't so you are wrong.

[b]Do you think the man was going around thinking "hey, this is neat and cool, look at me and what God and me did".
Not only did he do that but you did the same and even started a thread to that effect.

The cartwheel thing is typical. Look at the derision it received.
Derision? Not apparently in your Chur ...[text shortened]... ave) so you have no idea whether she is the sort of person who might elaborate a little bit.[/b]

Also, read the initial post again. The man who related the story is not the man doing cartwheels. Does even he know any of the people in the story? We are hearing the story third hand at the very least, quite possibly 20th or 30th hand.

Anyone heard of chinese whispers?

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
The man who related the story is not the man doing cartwheels.

I totally missed that! I honestly thought knighmeister knew the cartwheeler. So the whole "the person who related it was trustworthy" was irrelevant anyway.
Now suppose the actual cartwheeling took place 50 years ago. Do you see why the new Testament cannot be relied upon unless you first assume some guidance from God?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok , gregM , before you go down this road you need to do some heavy soul searching. Are you asking this in some expectation of God answering you , or is it a cynical side swipe at the story and God. If you are mocking God then don't expect much to happen , if your soul seriously is reaching out to God and you are not being dissingenuous (which I seriou ...[text shortened]... l be able to confirm to yourself (as secretly in your heart you want to) that it's all bunkum.

I'm a couple days late on this, but:

Obviously my post was intended to be somewhat mocking, but only somewhat: if there's a god who's truly interested in saving my soul from hell, why wouldn't he respond even to a "disingenuous" request? I say, "Show yourself, God, or according to you I'm going to hell." If God doesn't show himself, you have to question either his existence or the depth his concern for my eternal well-being.

Why must you believe in God to see evidence of God? Why is there no evidence that would convince a skeptic? Why is there a need for a "leap of faith?" After all, a "leap of faith" can convert you to Zoroastrianism just as easily as Christianity.

Do you think I would get a response if I was "seriously reaching out to God?" What if I was seriously reaching out to Poseidon?

Originally posted by GregM
I'm a couple days late on this, but:

Obviously my post was intended to be somewhat mocking, but only somewhat: if there's a god who's truly interested in saving my soul from hell, why wouldn't he respond even to a "disingenuous" request? I say, "Show yourself, God, or according to you I'm going to hell." If God doesn't show himself, you have to question eit ...[text shortened]... eriously reaching out to God?" What if I was seriously reaching out to Poseidon?

Good questions Greg , you could get a response to a disingenuous test but you might well not. God is seriously interested in "saving your soul" but you have to want to be with him and see your need to be saved. Our pride prevents us from thinking that we might need Christ because we think we are "good enough " without him (without realsing any goodness comes from him anyway) .

Your secondary point is also interesting. I struggle with this myself to an extent . Why must we believe in order to get evidence or results of some sort? At first sight this seems a very good question but what happens if we pick it apart. If a scientist did not believe at all in his hypothesis then he would not be able to test it and would be unlikely to get any decent results.One has to have a certain degree of faith in order to have any degree of response. If I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in my driving instructor I will not get very far with driving.

Similarly , if one has absolutely no faith whatsoever that God might respond , then even if he did (eg a cartwheel or something) you would probably talk yourself out of it anyway and dismiss it as co-incidence. You don't have to leap , you can dip your toe in if you want , BUT it needs to be a sincere toe and not a mocking one. God will respond to 1% of you sincerely seeking , but don't be surprised if you only get 1% of the response.

Ultimately he already knows how sincerely interested you are in him and knows your heart better than you do. All I can say is that anyone who seriously reaches out to God in humility and makes a determined effort to find him WILL stumble across something that will challenge their world view and will find out something of who the living God of the Bible is. Poseidon as far as I know does not make that promise. Jesus does. But before you do anything search your heart properly.

You said that your post was only somewhat mocking? What about the other part?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
No they aren't. If they were, they wouldn't be "omni's".

The USA is a superpower and in relation to the world's military powers , omnipotent , however , there are many ways it's power can be exercised. If it doesn't nuke us all into submission does that mean it's not a superpower any more?

The thing that makes all the omni's open to interpretation is that there are various ways that an omni can be applied. Like any power it can be exercised with restraint , recklessness , wisdom etc etc. The quality of the omnis is not the same as how they are exercised.

Originally posted by Penguin
Also, read the initial post again. The man who related the story is not the man doing cartwheels. Does even he know any of the people in the story? We are hearing the story third hand at the very least, quite possibly 20th or 30th hand.

Anyone heard of chinese whispers?

--- Penguin.

The person who related the story to me was a relative who heard it from the person who did the cartwheeling. Notice how you were itching to speculate that it was 20th or 30th hand. You are primed to be ultra cynical. Healthy skepticism is one thing ...but this is like reversed fundamentalism.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But it wasn't so you are wrong.

[b]Do you think the man was going around thinking "hey, this is neat and cool, look at me and what God and me did".
Not only did he do that but you did the same and even started a thread to that effect.

The cartwheel thing is typical. Look at the derision it received.
Derision? Not apparently in your Chur ...[text shortened]... ave) so you have no idea whether she is the sort of person who might elaborate a little bit.[/b]

Derision? Not apparently in your Church which is where he told the story. WHITEY

I was refering to the forum , but maybe it was not totally clear from the wording.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But it wasn't so you are wrong.

[b]Do you think the man was going around thinking "hey, this is neat and cool, look at me and what God and me did".
Not only did he do that but you did the same and even started a thread to that effect.

The cartwheel thing is typical. Look at the derision it received.
Derision? Not apparently in your Chur ...[text shortened]... ave) so you have no idea whether she is the sort of person who might elaborate a little bit.[/b]

Do you think the man was going around thinking "hey, this is neat and cool, look at me and what God and me did". KM

Not only did he do that but you did the same and even started a thread to that effect.WHITEY

RESPONSE---

Neither he nor I were being boastful about what happened. The hope was to share the story to get some discussion going. He related this in church in order to inspire the faith of others and talk about how we need to have the guts to do what God is asking of us and even if it seems silly at the time God will have a plan. I have said in a post already that me starting this thread may have been a mistake , but I have made efforts all along to stress the value of the story in it's rightful context and not allow it to become a simple magic trick story. I stressing the meaning of the event long before you latched on to it. In some ways the story has been devalued but in others the meaning of it has been highlighted as well. The jury is out for me at the moment on this one.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But it wasn't so you are wrong.

[b]Do you think the man was going around thinking "hey, this is neat and cool, look at me and what God and me did".
Not only did he do that but you did the same and even started a thread to that effect.

The cartwheel thing is typical. Look at the derision it received.
Derision? Not apparently in your Chur ...[text shortened]... ave) so you have no idea whether she is the sort of person who might elaborate a little bit.[/b]

Now answer me honestly. Which do you think is more likely to have a happened:
1. The woman asked God to make someone do cartwheels in the bus station.
2. The woman asked God for a sign and after seeing someone do cartwheels elaborated on the story when talking to the man. WHITEY

RESPONSE----

I find 1) more likely partly due to the fact that my world view and what I have expereinced of God means I don't find the event so incredible per se. (where as you would) . I also think the strong emotional reaction of the woman is quite telling because it suggests that she felt within herself that a prayer had been answered directly. One thing we can both agree on is for her the event must have probably been convincing and real.

2) may be possible , but even if 2) was true this could still be a response to prayer. Whatever the case she got talking to a Christian and didn't kill herself . Even with 2) one could argue that she asked for a sign and got a sign. She may have elaborated on the story retrospectively but the way I heard it it doesn't sound like it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I have said in a post already that me starting this thread may have been a mistake , but I have made efforts all along to stress the value of the story in it's rightful context and not allow it to become a simple magic trick story. I stressing the meaning of the event long before you latched on to it. In some ways the story has been devalued but in oth ...[text shortened]... e meaning of it has been highlighted as well. The jury is out for me at the moment on this one.

You suggested that it might be taken as evidence (however slim) for the existence of God. Now you are saying it is not a magic trick story.

Do you admit that there is no real evidence that the events in question actually took place and that it is quite possible if not probable that the story was either made up or elaborated in important parts?

Do you admit that to take it as evidence for God would be equivalent to going to watch a magic show and taking that as evidence for God.?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But it wasn't so you are wrong.

[b]Do you think the man was going around thinking "hey, this is neat and cool, look at me and what God and me did".
Not only did he do that but you did the same and even started a thread to that effect.

The cartwheel thing is typical. Look at the derision it received.
Derision? Not apparently in your Chur ...[text shortened]... ave) so you have no idea whether she is the sort of person who might elaborate a little bit.[/b]

Remember that you find the man trustworthy but have never met the woman (at least you haven't mentioned it if you have) so you have no idea whether she is the sort of person who might elaborate a little bit. WHITEY

And equally you also have no idea whether she is not that sort of person at all. It's all choice and faith at the end of the day. Having experienced so called "co-incidences" myself (and I know I am trustworthy) it's not so hard for me to believe all this. Mind you , I was seeking and asking.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The person who related the story to me was a relative who heard it from the person who did the cartwheeling. Notice how you were itching to speculate that it was 20th or 30th hand. You are primed to be ultra cynical. Healthy skepticism is one thing ...but this is like reversed fundamentalism.

Ok so we are hearing it 4th hand. However, until you said that, it could have been 20th hand as far as we were concerned. I think that until we had that information, considering the number of urban legends that go round and round for years, it was a reasonable speculation. Thanks for clearing it up.

TWhiteheads hypothesis of wish fulfilment and adaptive memories is now, I think, the best naturalistic explanation, assuming all parties are trustworthy and not deliberately embellishing the story. We are pattern-matching animals, especially when under stress.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
Ok so we are hearing it 4th hand. However, until you said that, it could have been 20th hand as far as we were concerned. I think that until we had that information, considering the number of urban legends that go round and round for years, it was a reasonable speculation. Thanks for clearing it up.

TWhiteheads hypothesis of wish fulfilment and adaptive m ...[text shortened]... ishing the story. We are pattern-matching animals, especially when under stress.

--- Penguin.

And pattern matching and wish fulfillment are alternative explanations. Not every instance of this kind is necessary a work of God. But some are. It's not an all or nothing thing.

Originally posted by Penguin
Ok so we are hearing it 4th hand. However, until you said that, it could have been 20th hand as far as we were concerned. I think that until we had that information, considering the number of urban legends that go round and round for years, it was a reasonable speculation. Thanks for clearing it up.

TWhiteheads hypothesis of wish fulfilment and adaptive m ...[text shortened]... ishing the story. We are pattern-matching animals, especially when under stress.

--- Penguin.

it could have been 20th hand as far as we were concerned. PENG

...but it was interesting to see how easy it was for you to assume it was 20 or 30th hand. Wish fulfillment works both ways you know...you both have emotional investments in squashing the idea that this may be a bona fide story. Try turning your own logic in on yourself , that's when things get interesting. It's one thing to be skeptical but have you ever realised that you can also be skeptical about your very own skepticism?