29 Jun 08
Originally posted by Rajk999Excellent post.
Matt 13:
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abunda ...[text shortened]... in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
29 Jun 08
3 edits
Originally posted by josephwI don't know what to say if you aren't able to understand that the word "believe" is ambiguous in and of itself.
Perhaps "believe" is ambiguous to you, and that's why the depth of your arguments leaves one wondering if the rest of your "beliefs" aren't contrived.
If you can't answer the simple question as to HOW one is going to obey "the words of Jesus", then your assertions are empty and meaningless. You're going to have to go a step further if you want your arguments to have greater strength.
Do you really need more instruction than to 'love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind' or to 'love your neighbor as yourself' or to 'deny [your]self'? Seems like humility is a good place for you to start also.
Luke 6:46
"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by NemesioHow can the words be "from above" when Nicodemus clearly asked how a man can enter into his mothers womb to be born again?
You are using an antiquated Bible, and consequently it is riddled with translation errors. The term
should be translated as 'from above' in Jesus' mouth. This is the only way the dialogue with
Nicodemus makes any sense (otherwise Jesus is correcting him by saying exactly the same thing).
Nemesio
Here are the Strongs deffinitions for the words "born" and "again":
born:
G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
again:
G509
ἄνωθεν
anōthen
an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.
I think you are forgeting the word "born". "Again" is the only one I see with the definition of "from above". I believe it was translated corectly as "again" otherwise why would Nicodemus ask how a man can enter into his mothers womb again? If it was "from above" Nicodemus would never have asked about being born of the womb again.
Though I see where "born from above" would fit into what Jesus was saying, however, it does not explain Nicodemus' question. I believe Jesus put it the way he did so that those who are spiritually blinded would not understand, that is the purpose of parables.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSounds like a works based faith to me. 😉
I'm sure I've answered this before, but maybe your memory isn't too good.
In the words of Jesus:
Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven
John 8:32-33
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, t ...[text shortened]... e shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."
29 Jun 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI think what Josephw is trying to ask is how does one come to believe. You can not believe in something you know nothing about, so how does one come to believe?
"Believe" is an ambigous word that can mean anything from a slight inclination to a strongly held imperative. So we have to look elsewhere for Jesus to establish what is required, which He does in verses such as this:
Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but [b]he who does the will of my Father y the words of Jesus aren't good enough for you. Again I ask you, what are you expecting?
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by pritybettaYou sound like another blind Pharisee.
Sounds like a works based faith to me. 😉
Christ spoke all the time about works being the requirement for salvation. You cant escape it ... its all over the NT.
What about the parable of the Good Samaritan? A preist and a Levite with all the faith and talk and belief and prayers failed to do good works. A Samaritan - a total heathen with no knowledge of Christ but with a good heart and conscience did the good works. The Samaritan gets salvation and the priest and Levite get nothing !
Can you explain the meaning of this passage in Romans 2? Seems to me that it is explaining what happens to people who have no knowledge of Christ and his laws but who still do good works. What do you think?
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another😉
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
29 Jun 08
1 edit
Originally posted by pritybettaIf you have something to say, I wish you'd just plainly state it. Your comments can be taken any number of ways.
I think what Josephw is trying to ask is how does one come to believe. You can not believe in something you know nothing about, so how does one come to believe?
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by Rajk999Jesus never said that works are a requirement, granted he did comand us to do things, however, he never said we 'could' do them on our own. We are only able to do them if we are quickened to spiritual life, ie. saved. Works are the result of salvation not a requirement. Works are the fruit we bear as a result of being drafted in as part of the vine.
You sound like another blind Pharisee.
Christ spoke all the time about works being the requirement for salvation. You cant escape it ... its all over the NT.
What about the parable of the Good Samaritan? A preist and a Levite with all the faith and talk and belief and prayers failed to do good works. A Samaritan - a total heathen with no knowledge of Ch ...[text shortened]...
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
And the passage from Romans 2 that you posted is explaining how those who do not know the law are still guilty. It is not saying that we have to do anything for salvation.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOkay. Can you explain to me how some one can believe in something when they know nothing about it?
If you have something to say, I wish you'd just plainly state it. Your comments can be taken any number of ways.
The Bible explains that you have to be under the hearing of the Word in order to have faith.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith is a gift from the Lord.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grace is the mercy the Lord has on us and faith is the gift that is of God and not of us or of any work we do.
In order for one to believe they first have to be under the hearing of the Word. Then the Lord quickens them to spiritual life so that they can believe.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved😉
For the natural man can not see the things of the Lord unless he is quickened from a state of being dead in sin to being alive in spirit.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Lasarus was dead when Jesus quickend him to life. Lasarus could not become alive on his own and could not do anything. Jesus did all the work to quicken him to life. The same is when someone is saved, they do nothing inorder to get saved, it is all of the Lord.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by pritybettaDo you believe that one can "be saved"/"have eternal life"/"enter heaven/ etc." without having overcome sin?
Okay. Can you explain to me how some one can believe in something when they know nothing about it?
The Bible explains that you have to be under the hearing of the Word in order to have faith.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith is a gift from the Lord.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through fa ...[text shortened]... The same is when someone is saved, they do nothing inorder to get saved, it is all of the Lord.
Jesus states otherwise:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou forget that it is Christ in us that overcomes the sin. We can not do it on our own.
Do you believe that one can "be saved"/"have eternal life"/"enter heaven/ etc." without having overcome sin?
Jesus states otherwise:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in ...[text shortened]... ?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
He who does the will of the Lord is only able to do so because of what Christ has done. Doing the will of the Lord is the result of being saved. The fruit that we bear as a result of savlation.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by pritybettaIs there an answer to the question here?
You forget that it is Christ in us that overcomes the sin. We can not do it on our own.
He who does the will of the Lord is only able to do so because of what Christ has done. Doing the will of the Lord is the result of being saved. The fruit that we bear as a result of savlation.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by pritybettaIs English your native language? How can you read the words of Jesus and not see how totally essential good works are is utterly amazing to me.
Jesus never said that works are a requirement, .....
Read the question (below) asked of Jesus .. the guy is asking what he has to DO to get eternal life.
The answer Jesus gives is all about GOOD WORKS. Meaning that if the guy did not do good works there is no salvation.
Furthermore Jesus went on to say that the rich can hardly enter into the kingdom. Do you think that rich are incapable of believing and having faith? Thats the easy part. The hard part is taking what you have and giving it to the poor. And thats the part that Christ will reward. Not simply proclaiming your faith which anyone can do with their mouth.
Matt 19:
16 ..... Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, It is hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle`s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.