Spirituality
26 May 07
31 May 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasWithout exception, every verse or passage you have quoted is being misinterpreted and/or applied incorrectly. The core issue is less complex than the billboards let on: either there is something we must add to faith in order to make it efficacious, or not. I think you know where my allegiance lands.
[b]Man can do nothing to gain the approbation of God. No work, no deed, no amount of penance. Faith alone in Christ alone is the only source of salvation. There is nothing meritorious about faith.
This is true.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us ...[text shortened]... ips, but their hearts hold off and are far distant from Me" (Mark 7:6).[/b]
01 Jun 07
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWithout exception, every verse or passage you have quoted is being misinterpreted and/or applied incorrectly.
Without exception, every verse or passage you have quoted is being misinterpreted and/or applied incorrectly. The core issue is less complex than the billboards let on: either there is something we must add to faith in order to make it efficacious, or not. I think you know where my allegiance lands.
Please, show me how. I would very much like to understand where I've gone wrong (assuming I have). After I return from vacation, I will respond in kind.
Peace.
01 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasI was wondering about that too, but like you I'm out of here in about
[b]Without exception, every verse or passage you have quoted is being misinterpreted and/or applied incorrectly.
Please, show me how. I would very much like to understand where I've gone wrong (assuming I have). After I return from vacation, I will respond in kind.
Peace.[/b]
40 minutes. 🙂
Kelly
05 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasWhile you could pick one that you consider to be the most pesky, it's much more profitable to begin with the first principles; namely, how is salvation wrought?
[b]Without exception, every verse or passage you have quoted is being misinterpreted and/or applied incorrectly.
Please, show me how. I would very much like to understand where I've gone wrong (assuming I have). After I return from vacation, I will respond in kind.
Peace.[/b]
11 Jun 07
Originally posted by KellyJaySorry for the delay, KellyJay. I owe you this from some time back, so here's the short version:
[b]Blakbuzzrd
“What about someone like me who no longer believes? Do I still get grace? Is the unchangeable God's grace unwavering, or does it come and go depending on human belief?
I refer you to 2 Timothy 2:13: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Also worth considering is Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man that h ...[text shortened]... so I’m assuming you just forgot about this
or have not had time to get back to it.
Kelly[/b]
Obviously, there's going to be a bit of a disconnect here, because you believe certain things that I don't anymore. That makes talking about it hard, because the terms we would use ourselves don't have much meaning in conversation with each other (e.g., "walking with God," "a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ," etc.). To try to get past that, though, I'm going to use language that I would have used then to describe my faith at that time, okay?
The answer is yes, I had a deep and abiding relationship with Christ. I became a believer in childhood, and had a number of periods where I was more or less focused on God. I read the Bible. A lot. In high school, other than an odd crisis or two, I went my own way spiritually (meaning I drank and messed around a lot). As soon as I went to college, though, I fell in with some Christian friends, and recommitted my life to Christ. In college, I was very involved in a student ministry, taking two summer mission trips to spread the gospel both stateside and internationally. I left that ministry after a while, not because I lost faith in God, but because I felt the ministry itself had lost touch with reality. At that time, I had no real words for it, but I was moving toward what is now termed a post-evangelical perspective. You can read up about that in recent books like A New Kind of Christian by Brian McLaren, or Dave Tomlinson's The Post-Evangelical. I prefer the latter, but I think you might really enjoy the former.
My heart was open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and I sought -- fiercely at times -- the Scriptures for truth and application to my life. I met and prayed with fellow believers in Christ, and my wife and I actually planned and started a class at our church for young married believers. I also met in accountability with three or four guys on a weekly basis, to share our lives and to encourage each other according that "iron sharpening iron" principle.
I wrestled with God. I yelled at God. I praised God, and I thanked God. I walked with Him through so many crises and personal fires that I considered Him both my worst opponent and best friend: the one who knew my name, so to speak, but the one who wouldn't scruple to punch me square in the jaw for the sake of sanctifying me. A Father who loved his children beyond anything they could know or understand, and who desired the best for them.
That was my faith.
And now it's gone.
You know, that kinda hurt.
11 Jun 07
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdHave you ever received the Holy Spirit? My experience with evangelical churches has been quite dry. I can see where one might feel constricted by an atmosphere where the Holy Spirit is not given his rightful dominion over a congregation; where the peace of Christ's presence does not rule; where his holiness and joy are not immediately palpable. Tradition has a way of stifling the preeminence of the Holy Spirit. As for me, everything in my Christian life changed after I received the Holy Spirit. That dryness no longer pervades my walk. Yes, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit upon first believing, but the empowerment of the Spirit is something which needs to be received, as surely as one must be baptized into the Kingdom. In this passage, notice how being baptized into the name of Jesus is a separate event than receiving the Spirit: "When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God’s message, they sent Peter and John there. As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:14-16). Of course, given your involvement with CCC, you've probably been heavily influenced against charismatic beliefs, believing that God's Holy Spirit is not meant for the modern church in any demonstrable way. Let me know your thoughts...
Sorry for the delay, KellyJay. I owe you this from some time back, so here's the short version:
Obviously, there's going to be a bit of a disconnect here, because you believe certain things that I don't anymore. That makes talking about it hard, because the terms we would use ourselves don't have much meaning in conversation with each other (e.g., "wal ...[text shortened]... them.
That was my faith.
And now it's gone.
You know, that kinda hurt.
12 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasWell, mainline evangelicals tend to stress that the HS is "received" at the moment of salvation (I think you used the term "sealed" to refer to this). Of course, it sorta begs the question if you come to believe, as I eventually did, that salvation was a lifelong journey, rather than something reducible to a single point in time (incidentally, were I yet a believer, this would be my take on the question of whether you can lose your salvation).
Have you ever received the Holy Spirit? My experience with evangelical churches has been quite dry. I can see where one might feel constricted by an atmosphere where the Holy Spirit is not given his rightful dominion over a congregation; where the peace of Christ's presence does not rule; where his holiness and joy are not immediately palpable. Tradit t is not meant for the modern church in any demonstrable way. Let me know your thoughts...
But certain strains in the evangelical community also hold that there's a difference between receiving the HS and being filled or led (maybe this is what you mean by "empowered" ) by the HS. That was a distinction I learned in college (when I recommitted my life to Christ). CCC also spreads that belief, although they tend to look away from (not to say look down on) the manifestation of gifts in the charismatic mode (no speaking in tongues or anything). It was more learning that process that some call "spiritual breathing": confessing sin, or exhaling it, followed by surrendering to the leading of the HS, asking to be filled with it and guided by Him, or inhaling the HS.
Yep. Did that.
12 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdWas it real, your walk with God? I understood you "had" a belief, I'm
Sorry for the delay, KellyJay. I owe you this from some time back, so here's the short version:
Obviously, there's going to be a bit of a disconnect here, because you believe certain things that I don't anymore. That makes talking about it hard, because the terms we would use ourselves don't have much meaning in conversation with each other (e.g., "wal them.
That was my faith.
And now it's gone.
You know, that kinda hurt.
not sure in what or why so I'm asking. I did not become a Christian
until I was 25, it was a life changing event for me, with being filled
with the HS too. I have met several people who grew up in church that
church life seems to be all they knew, but honestly I think they
look more to the church than they actually do God other than knowing
the right words to speak. Which makes me wonder when someone
says they left God, if they ever really knew God or not.
Kelly
edit:
thank you for your responce.
12 Jun 07
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdYou'd have no doubt if you were filled with the HS, the gifts of the Spirit
Well, mainline evangelicals tend to stress that the HS is "received" at the moment of salvation (I think you used the term "sealed" to refer to this). Of course, it sorta begs the question if you come to believe, as I eventually did, that salvation was a lifelong journey, rather than something reducible to a single point in time (incidentally, were I yet ...[text shortened]... S, asking to be filled with it and guided by Him, or inhaling the HS.
Yep. Did that.
basically confirm it too.
Kelly
12 Jun 07
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdJust so I know we are still using the same words that mean the same
Uh, yeah. It saturated every part of life.
thing, you had a walk with God, and God was who you walked away from? I was under the impression you no longer believed God is real, which would have made what you walked away from not real, but false.
Kelly