16 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Don't you know that Jesus was in heaven with God in the beginning?
How can you possibly even begin to believe and have any faith in anything the Bible says when you blaintenly ignor all the other scriptures like they don't exist that say NO ONE went to heaven before Jesus and that he was the FIRST? You must have quite a fight in your mind trying to figure this stuff out and make it make sense.
But if one just picks wh ...[text shortened]... ignor the rest and if your happy with that, go for it.
Must really be frustrating though....
He was known as the Word. (John 1:1)
16 Aug 11
Originally posted by RJHindsas the latest gospel to be accepted into canon, it is doubtful it was written by a contemporary of the time of jesus. i wouldn't put much weight in what the mysterious author of "john" claims. it was obviously one of the later propaganda pieces pushed by the logos christians to assert their false dogma over the original alogi christians.
Don't you know that Jesus was in heaven with God in the beginning?
He was known as the Word. (John 1:1)
16 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by VoidSpiritDon't try that nonsense with me. I know better. The Gospel of John
as the latest gospel to be accepted into canon, it is doubtful it was written by a contemporary of the time of jesus. i wouldn't put much weight in what the mysterious author of "john" claims. it was obviously one of the later propaganda pieces pushed by the logos christians to assert their false dogma over the original alogi christians.
is consistant with the other writings in the New Testament.
ADDITION:
I would think you would question the Book of Revelation over any of
the others. I could not fault you for thinking the author might have
been on Lysergic acid diethylamide (L.S.D) because of the visions.
17 Aug 11
Originally posted by RJHindsit is not at all consistent with the others (not that the others are consistent with each other). only john mentions the preexistence of christ.
Don't try that nonsense with me. I know better. The Gospel of John
is consistant with the other writings in the New Testament.
ADDITION:
I would think you would question the Book of Revelation over any of
the others. I could not fault you for thinking the author might have
been on Lysergic acid diethylamide (L.S.D) because of the visions.
the gosples start with mark where we have a simple preacher, a man selected by god and lay it on thicker as they go along, leaving the thickest gravy in john where jesus becomes transcendent and pre-existing.
revelations is apocrypha and has nothing to do with the ministry of christ. and i wouldn't say he was on LSD. while mushrooms were the choice drug for going on "in the spirit" vision quests back then (and still in use now!), the author of revelations was likely on a starvation fast.
17 Aug 11
Originally posted by galveston75God can make exceptions by the way He took Enoch and Elijah both did not die. God made exceptions in the case of these two individuals.
So now your going back to the part that his physical body is in heaven. No air, no food, no water but yet the body is there..Okee dokie.
I know what the Bible says and it says NO ONE went to heaven before Jesus. I understand that completely and easily. It seems your the one who doesn't understand and believes the Bible contradicts itself or else you'd ...[text shortened]... this result of not understanding this example of Enoch and what God took to heaven............
Manny
17 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by VoidSpiritYou think the Gospel of Mark depicts Jesus as a simple preacher?
it is not at all consistent with the others (not that the others are consistent with each other). only john mentions the preexistence of christ.
the gosples start with mark where we have a simple preacher, a man selected by god and lay it on thicker as they go along, leaving the thickest gravy in john where jesus becomes transcendent and pre-existing. back then (and still in use now!), the author of revelations was likely on a starvation fast.
You might could say the Gospel of Mark depicts John the Baptist
as a simple preacher, but not Jesus. Even in the beginning of the
Gospel of Mark, we see there is something special about Jesus.
Mark reports John the Baptist as saying about Jesus, "I baptized
you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
(Mark 1:8) And when John the Baptist baptized Jesus with water,
Mark reports that the heavens opened and the Spirit descended
upon Jesus and a voice came out of the heavens saying, "Thou art
My beloved Son, in Thee I am well pleased." (Mark 1:10-11) The
preaching of Jesus was met with amazement because He spoke as
one having authority. Mark reports many miracles performed by
Jesus, like casting out unclean spirits from those that were demon
possessed and the healing of the sick, blind, deaf, and paralytic.
Does this really sound like a "simple preacher" to you. Jesus said
of Himself, "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this
adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be
ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the
Holy angels." (Mark 8:38) Mark reports Jesus as predicting His
death and resurrection in Mark 9:31 when He tells His disciples,
"The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they
will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days
later." When the high priest asked Jesus, "Are You the Christ, the
Son of the Blessed One?" And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see
the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with
the clouds of heaven." Does this sound like Jesus thought of Himself
as a "simple" preacher? Mark also reports Jesus's resurrection and
appearance to His disciple and His ascension into heaven. Mark
does not seem to think of Jesus as a "simple preacher".
17 Aug 11
Originally posted by menace71Hebrew 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and
God can make exceptions by the way He took Enoch and Elijah both did not die. God made exceptions in the case of these two individuals.
Manny
after this comes judgement.
Some Bible scholars believe God postponed the death of these two men
so they could be His witnesses in Jerusalem during the second woe in
the end time. (Revelation 11:3-13)
17 Aug 11
6 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpirit======================================
it is not at all consistent with the others (not that the others are consistent with each other). only john mentions the preexistence of christ.
the gosples start with mark where we have a simple preacher, a man selected by god and lay it on thicker as they go along, leaving the thickest gravy in john where jesus becomes transcendent and pre-existing. back then (and still in use now!), the author of revelations was likely on a starvation fast.
it is not at all consistent with the others (not that the others are consistent with each other). only john mentions the preexistence of christ.
========================================
The Gospel of Matthew also has Christ mention His own preexistence or existence as God before He was born.
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (Matthew 23:37)
It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young as in Isaiah 31:5 and Deuteronomy 32:11-12. Therefore, for Jesus to say "I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings," was for Jesus to indicate that He was the prexisting God Himself. He was there as God in the Old Testament.
===================================
the gosples start with mark where we have a simple preacher, a man selected by god and lay it on thicker as they go along, leaving the thickest gravy in john where jesus becomes transcendent and pre-existing.
=====================================
The four gospels depict four angles of Christ and seem to emphasize each respective angle though there is much overlap.
Matthew depicts Christ as a King - the King Savior.
Mark as a Servant or Slave - the Slave Savior.
Luke as the most normal Man - the Man Savior.
John as God Himself - the God Savior.
Mark's Gospel may be considered the simpliest depicting Christ as a Slave. With mostly His acts portrayed and comparitively less of His teaching, some maintain.
However, the Gospel of Mark opens with its intention to proclaim that this Servant or Slave of God is the Son of God:
"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God ..." (Mark 1:1)
Mark also goes on to quote Isaiah as an explanation of the ministry of John the Baptist:
" The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Even as it is written in Isaiah the prophet, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who will prepare Your way. A voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make straight His paths." (Mark 1:1-3)
It is clear in Mark's intention that John was going before God and making God's way straight. That is making the hearts of the people prepared to receive the coming of God.
=================
revelations is apocrypha and has nothing to do with the ministry of christ.
===========================
Revelation may have been slow to be considered by all "church fathers" as part of the canon. But it was not the only book to be slowly accepted.
It is the climax and grand finale of the entire divine revelation of the Bible. It has everything to do with Jesus Christ.
=========================
and i wouldn't say he was on LSD. while mushrooms were the choice drug for going on "in the spirit" vision quests back then (and still in use now!), the author of revelations was likely on a starvation fast.
===================================
Well, that is what you would say because perhaps that is your personal experience.
There is nothing much "new" in the book of Revelation. Most of it is based on things which appear elsewhere in the Bible.
Probably your rank unfamiliarity with, or lack of taking seriously of the rest of the Bible, causes you to have a low regard for the book of Revelation.
As it stands, the Bible is incomplete without the book of Revelation as its climax and culmination. It may be difficult for the beginner to tackle. But so would Leviticus be.
We don't dismiss it because it is difficult. And it is crucial to the culmination of the divine revelation of the Bible which is after all entirely "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" anyway.
17 Aug 11
Originally posted by menace71So your saying those other scriptures are lying? I've asked you this before on other subjects that totally contradict something you think one scripture is saying but then you have dozens of others I show you that say differently.
Dude God took Enoch to heaven and Enoch did not die for God took him. God is the God of the living not the dead and Christ said these very words to his doubters. Enoch is alive and well with God.
Manny
Then you don't comment on them and stubbornly stick to that one and say by ignoring "this is what it means reguardless of what other scriptures say."
Does that not bother you at all?
Prove scripture with scripture and you'll eventually find the truth!!!!!!!!!!
17 Aug 11
Originally posted by galveston75God made exceptions in the case of Enoch and Elijah is what I'm saying. These men God spared them from phyical death. I can't prove it but Rj has heard and this is a theory that God is saving these 2 men for something yet to happen. Which begs the question why did God not allow these 2 men to die? Who are the 2 witnesses in the book of revelation? They have power like the old testement prophets. It could be Enoch and Elijah. I will not go that far but it's like God is holding these 2 men for something special. God can make exceptions. He turned water into wine. He calmed a storm. He fed Elijah in the wilderness. Fed the Isrealites with mana. God is supernatural at can occasionally violate the laws of physics. That's the power of God you deny.
So your saying those other scriptures are lying? I've asked you this before on other subjects that totally contradict something you think one scripture is saying but then you have dozens of others I show you that say differently.
Then you don't comment on them and stubbornly stick to that one and say by ignoring "this is what it means reguardless of wh ...[text shortened]... u at all?
Prove scripture with scripture and you'll eventually find the truth!!!!!!!!!!
Manny
17 Aug 11
Originally posted by menace71Ok so it's now a theory with no proof and your willing to take RJ's "theory" instead of what the Bible says, that's your choice. If your satisfied with that and telling me that in your mind it's a contradiction in the Bible and the Bible lies "which you are" and that's ok without really trying to find out what that scripture means, then there isn't much I can do.
God made exceptions in the case of Enoch and Elijah is what I'm saying. These men God spared them from phyical death. I can't prove it but Rj has heard and this is a theory that God is saving these 2 men for something yet to happen. Which begs the question why did God not allow these 2 men to die? Who are the 2 witnesses in the book of revelation? They have ...[text shortened]... at can occasionally violate the laws of physics. That's the power of God you deny.
Manny
17 Aug 11
Originally posted by galveston75Where do you two see a contradiction or a lie? I missed that part.
Ok so it's now a theory with no proof and your willing to take RJ's "theory" instead of what the Bible says, that's your choice. If your satisfied with that and telling me that in your mind it's a contradiction in the Bible and the Bible lies "which you are" and that's ok without really trying to find out what that scripture means, then there isn't much I can do.
The fact that God chose to transport Enoch and Elijah to heaven in
the flying vehicle so that they should not see death at this time does
not prevent them from seeing death in the future before the judgment.
Just because Jesus did not do everything predicted that the Christ
would do on his first coming does not mean He is not the Christ, as the
Jews think. Because Jesus is alive in heaven waiting until the time
when He will come again and complete the fulfilling of the prophecies
of the Christ. So too, are Enoch and Elijah alive in heaven waiting for
the time when they are to fulfill prophecy in the service to God.
17 Aug 11
Originally posted by galveston75They were transfigured in the same way that Christ was transfigured, the bible says they did not see death. What part of that do you not understand?
Ok so it's now a theory with no proof and your willing to take RJ's "theory" instead of what the Bible says, that's your choice. If your satisfied with that and telling me that in your mind it's a contradiction in the Bible and the Bible lies "which you are" and that's ok without really trying to find out what that scripture means, then there isn't much I can do.