Originally posted by SuzianneThe point is that sonship and Calvinists like him think that they can supersede what is actually written in the text of the Bible by imposing their flawed exegesis upon it. This latest attempt is a prime example. Unable to come to terms with what is actually written in scripture because it does not support the dogma that he has brought with him he resorted to a rather feeble insult.
Missing the entire point yet [b]again.[/b]
Let him look up a Hebrew interlinear and come to the forum with honesty and tell the forum what is actually written there, if he is capable of it.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe main discussion was on Romans 10:9-13. Of course the Greek Jesus is not mentioned in the Hebrew text of Joel 2:32. The point is how does Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit expound its relevance in the matter of confessing the Lord Jesus.
Please tell the forum what you read in the Hebrew Interlinear concerning Joel 2:32.
I stand by what I wrote:
In verses 10 - 13 he reinforces this instruction and confirms it finally with a reference of Joel 2:32.
However you try to spin it - Jesus is Jehovah in reality and Jehovah is Jesus in the new covenant.
No one is trying to change the original Hebrew of Joel 2:32 in the Old Testament.
Your blind spot is in not seeing (or wanting to see) that this Jehovah has become a man in Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
Originally posted by sonshipTell the forum what the original verse actually says at Joel 2:32. We are not interested in your exegesis nor you pagan doctrines, we are interested in what the Bible actually says.
The main discussion was on [b]Romans 10:9-13. Of course the Greek Jesus is not mentioned in the Hebrew text of Joel 2:32. The point is how does Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit expound its relevance in the matter of confessing the Lord Jesus.
I stand by what I wrote:
[quote] In verses 10 - 13 he reinforces this instruction an ...[text shortened]... ng (or wanting to see) that this Jehovah has become a man in Jesus Christ in the New Testament.[/b]
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieWho is "we" ?
Tell the forum what the original verse actually says at Joel 2:32. We are not interested in your exegesis nor you pagan doctrines, we are interested in what the Bible actually says.
Are the "we" you refer to the Arians and Russelites going from door to door lying that Christ is Michael the arch-angel?
The Recovery Version translates Joel 2:32 thusly -
" And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah shall be saved; For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem will be an escape,
As Jehovah has said, Even for the remnant Whom Jehovah calls." (Joel 2:32 - Recovery Version Bible)
Isn't that just wonderful?
Here's how a number of English versions translate Romans 10:13.
English Standard Version
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Berean Study Bible
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Berean Literal Bible
for, "Whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
New American Standard Bible
for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
King James Bible
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
International Standard Version
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
NET Bible
For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
New Heart English Bible
For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
So then, "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
New American Standard 1977
for “WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
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A few more English translations of Rom. 10:13 and Matthew Henry's helpful comment:
Jubilee Bible 2000
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
King James 2000 Bible
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
American King James Version
For whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
American Standard Version
for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.
Darby Bible Translation
For every one whosoever, who shall call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved.
English Revised Version
for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Webster's Bible Translation
For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Weymouth New Testament
For "every one, without exception, who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
World English Bible
For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Young's Literal Translation
for every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'
Commentary
Matthew Henry Commentary
10:12-17 There is not one God to the Jews, more kind, and another to the Gentiles, who is less kind; the Lord is a Father to all men. The promise is the same to all, who call on the name of the Lord Jesus as the Son of God, as God manifest in the flesh. All believers thus call upon the Lord Jesus, and none else will do so humbly or sincerely. But how should any call on the Lord Jesus, the Divine Saviour, who had not heard of him? And what is the life of a Christian but a life of prayer? It shows that we feel our dependence on him, and are ready to give up ourselves to him, and have a believing expectation of our all from him. It was necessary that the gospel should be preached to the Gentiles. Somebody must show them what they are to believe. How welcome the gospel ought to be to those to whom it was preached! The gospel is given, not only to be known and believed, but to be obeyed. It is not a system of notions, but a rule of practice. The beginning, progress, and strength of faith is by hearing. But it is only hearing the word, as the word of God that will strengthen faith.
Originally posted by sonshipStrange I don't see where you make reference to a single Hebrew interlinear. why is that? Are you afraid that it will not support your dogma and pagan doctrines?
A few more English translations of [b]Rom. 10:13 and Matthew Henrey's helpful comment:
Jubilee Bible 2000[/b]
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
King James 2000 Bible
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
American King James Version
For whoever shall c ...[text shortened]... earing. But it is only hearing the word, as the word of God that will strengthen faith.
does the vers read - everyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved? is that what the original text actually says? NO! how do we know because its states from the Hebrew,
Everyone who calls on the name of *Jehovah will be saved. - Joel 2:32
*Strong's Concordance
Yhvh: the proper name of the God of Israel
Original Word: יְהֹוָה
Part of Speech: Proper Name
Transliteration: Yhvh
Phonetic Spelling: (yeh-ho-vaw'😉
Short Definition: LORD
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from havah
Definition
the proper name of the God of Israel
Now we are once again in a position to see what the Bible actually states because here is a proper name, the name of the God of Israel, Jehovah. It does not say Jesus and you cannot hide behind loose translations like Lord, the term is not Lord it is a proper name, Jehovah. In order to get round this glaring inconvenience you then need to do what all Calvinists do is attempt to impose upon scripture your doctrines where none actually exist in the text. The proper translation of Romans is therefore as follows,
For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” - Romans - 9:13
It is clear that there is no need to impose anything on the text and none can be derived from it. There are two entities, one the Christ, the other the father, Jehovah. I suspect once gain that your inaccurate translation, your dogma have led you to the erroneous conclusion that because your Bibles say 'Lord' instead of the proper name for God its a reference to Christ. Clearly not the case. I have demonstrated beyond a shadow of doubt that it is not the case, the original Hebrews uses a proper name, the name of the God of Israel, Jehovah.
Enough of you Calvinists, you don't know what it is you worship!
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie
strange i don't see where you make reference to a single Hebrew interlinear. why is that?
I don't have Hebrew or Greek fonts installed on my PC. But I should have some installed.
But while we are on Joel 2:32 let's go on to see a bit more. Immediately after verse 32 we have chapter 3.
"For indeed, in those days and at that time When I turn the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
I will gather all the nations and will bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there.
Because of My people and My inheritance Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations. And they have divided My land." (Joel 3:1,2)
The fulfillment of this judgment is when Jesus Christ sits on the throne of His glory in the Holy Land and judges the nations before Him separated into sheep and goats. This too proving that Jehovah became incarnated as the Son of Man.
Enter the New Testament:
" But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory.
And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He will set the sheep on His right hand and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world .... etc. etc. etc." (See Matt. 25:31-46)
This takes place in that huge valley of Jehoshaphat. And as Joel says Jehovah conducts this judgment, the Son of Man as Jehovah God incarnate, the Son of the Father, sits on the throne of His glory. He will judge the nations that survived alive through the time of the great tribulation.
24 Feb 17
Originally posted by sonshipsee my edited text exposing your errors!strange i don't see where you make reference to a single Hebrew interlinear. why is that?
I don't have Hebrew or Greek fonts installed on my PC. But I should have some installed.
But while we are on [b]Joel 2:32 let's go on to see a bit more. Immediately after verse 32 we have chapter 3.
[quote] "For indeed, in those days ...[text shortened]... glory. He will judge the nations that survived alive through the time of the great tribulation.
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Robbie,
Look now online at this Greek / English Interlinear of Romans 10:13.
Tell me which word there is YHWH or Jehovah or Yahweh please.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/10-13.htm
This is what the Apostle Paul wrote in Greek. And as you can see he wrote Kyriou there where it is translated to "Lord".
Out of the English translations that I listed, the Aramaic Bible in Plain English alone supplied Jehovah for us in verse 13. What Paul wrote was "Lord" - Kyriou.
3 3956 [e]
13 Pas
13 Πᾶς
13 whoever
13 Adj-NMS
1063 [e]
gar
γὰρ ,
indeed
Conj
3739 [e]
hos
ὃς
that
RelPro-NMS
302 [e]
an
ἂν
anyhow
Prtcl
1941 [e]
epikalesētai
ἐπικαλέσηται
shall call upon
V-ASM-3S
3588 [e]
to
τὸ
the
Art-ANS
3686 [e]
onoma
ὄνομα
name
N-ANS
2962 [e]
Kyriou
Κυρίου ,
of [the] Lord
N-GMS
4982 [e]
sōthēsetai
σωθήσεται .
will be saved
V-FIP-3S
Originally posted by sonshipyou yourself have admitted that its a direct quotation from Joel 2:32, have you not? Are you now changing your mind?
Robbie,
Look now online at this Greek / English Interlinear of [b]Romans 10:13.
Tell me which word there is YHWH or Jehovah or Yahweh please.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/10-13.htm
This is what the Apostle Paul wrote in Greek. And as you can see he wrote Kyriou there where it is translated to "Lord".
...[text shortened]... of [the] Lord [/b]
N-GMS
4982 [e]
sōthēsetai
σωθήσεται .
will be saved
V-FIP-3S [/quote][/b]
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Strange I don't see where you make reference to a single Hebrew interlinear. why is that? Are you afraid that it will not support your dogma and pagan doctrines?
does the vers read - everyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved? is that what the original text actually says? NO! how do we know because its states from the Hebrew,
Eve ...[text shortened]... he God of Israel, Jehovah.
Enough of you Calvinists, you don't know what it is you worship!
Now we are once again in a position to see what the Bible actually states because here is a proper name, the name of the God of Israel, Jehovah. It does not say Jesus and you cannot hide behind loose translations like Lord, the term is not Lord it is a proper name, Jehovah. In order to get round this glaring inconvenience you then need to do what all Calvinists do is attempt to impose upon scripture your doctrines where none actually exist in the text. The proper translation of Romans is therefore as follows,
I don't know why you keep calling me a Calvinist. I haven't read one book by Calvin all the way through yet.
I think "Calvinist" is just a term of blame for everything about the Christian faith with which one is grumpy.
Paul's First Corinthian [edited] letter was written to those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
" Paul, a called apostle of Christ Jesus ... to the church of God which is in Corinth .... with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, ..." (See 1 Cor. 1:1,2)
It stands completely to reason that in chapter 10 of Romans [edtied] Paul would speak about calling on the name of the Lord (Kyriou) - Jesus Christ.
24 Feb 17
Originally posted by sonshipno it doesn't you simply made it up, it does not refer to Jesus and I have just demonstrated why by making reference to the original Hebrew language which contains the name of God, enough of your pretence.
[quote] Now we are once again in a position to see what the Bible actually states because here is a proper name, the name of the God of Israel, Jehovah. It does not say Jesus and you cannot hide behind loose translations like Lord, the term is not Lord it is a proper name, Jehovah. In order to get round this glaring inconvenience you then need to do what all ...[text shortened]... Paul would speak about calling on the name of the Lord (Kyriou) - [b]Jesus Christ.[/b]
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you yourself have admitted that its a direct quotation from Joel 2:32, have you not? Are you now changing your mind?
you yourself have admitted that its a direct quotation from Joel 2:32, have you not? Are you now changing your mind?
Paul did not stop writing Greek and write verse 13 in Hebrew. It seems that you are looking over the apostle's shoulder and wanting to correct what he did write, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, you can until you're blue in the face refer to what JOEL penned down under inspiration. But how do you expect Christians to believe the apostle who wrote 13 of the 27 New Testament books needed to sit at the feet of Jehovah's Witnesses to CORRECT to what you think he should have written ?
The fact of the matter is that many, many places in the New Testament, the Lord is Christ but the corresponding OT passage would probably read Jehovah.
You have to despise the New Testament.
You have to adopt an attitude of mistrust of the Apostles of Christ.
You have to believe that the apostles would have done better to be enrolled in a teacher's instruction course given by the Watchtower Society.
Paul, when he was Saul the persecutor, was known for arresting and persecuting Jewish men and women who were calling on the name of JESUS.
" And Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many concerning this man, how many evil things he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem;
And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon Your name." (Acts. 9:13,14)
Do you think Saul was arresting people who called on the name of Jehovah ?
Of course not. He was arresting people who called on the name of JESUS - the Lord Jesus.
In fact the Lord Whom Saul was persecuting TOLD him that he was JESUS.
"And he said, Who are You, Lord ? And He said I am Jesus, whom you persecute." (Acts 9:5)