Beware the writings of the Watchman

@fmf said
sonship's churlish, ruffled-feathers reaction is interesting though, for sure.

Why not I wonder, sonship just say something like “well they are fallible men who make lots of mistakes, each Christian should take for their teaching what speaks to them”. Instead of defending their writings as though they are holy apostles. For me it smacks of cultism.

@divegeester

I perceive that this OP by Ghost of a Duke has some traction only because of your inappropriate level of esteem of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee.

Having high esteem for some servants of God is inappropriate?
Why?

They are just fallible men but there are indications from the breadth of your posting about them that they are perhaps approaching infallibility.

Can you quote me or any publication claiming infallibility of Watchman Nee or Witness Lee?

Can you cite any post in which I esteemed them as men would could not make mistakes?

You cannot and are sounding another false alarm.

The New Testament says such servants should be held in high esteem. Held in high esteem does not mean these servants are infallible.

Paul reminded the Colossians of a faithful brother Epaphras.

As you learned from Epaphras, our beloved fellow slave, who is a minister of Christ faithful for you. (Col. 1:7)

He simply drew attention to his faithfulness. It doesn't mean he should be regarded as infallible.

He recommended Prisca and Aquilla as noteworthy.

Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, Who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the nations. (Rom. 16:3,4)

Had you received this letter might you have complained that Paul was making Prisca and Aquila into infallible people?

Silliness.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

'Nee’s writings show that he adopted this two-tiered system of believers: there are those that are being sanctified by letting Christ live in them, and those that are still carnal (he uses the term “ripened” vs. “unripened” ).

In First Corinthians 3:13-15 the Apostle Paul teaches that when Christ returns and examines Christians ...[text shortened]... ] Eternally saved and REWARDED.
[b]2.) Eternally saved yet so as through fire, suffering loss.

You continue with your deceitful lying habits. You have willfully and deliberately omitted the writings of Paul which state clearly that there are THREE not two categories of people.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Corinthians 3:14-17 KJV)

THREE:
1. Rewarded
2. Suffer Loss but still saved
3. Destroyed

The last group described by Paul contradicts Watchmans false doctrines so you leave it out... damn fool

@sonship said
@divegeester
Having high esteem for some servants of God is inappropriate?
Why?
Can you quote me or any publication claiming infallibility of Watchman Nee or Witness Lee?
Can you cite any post in which I esteemed them as men would could not make mistakes?

You cannot and are sounding another false alarm.

A) I explained in the post you are replying to.

B) I talked about your “broad posting”, it’s the general impression I get, also evidenced by the “hymn” which I also cited as an example I my post.

C) I’m just suggesting why you come under such scrutiny in your elevation of those men.

Perhaps you can prove me completely wrong by citing a few working examples of their spiritual or theological fallibility?

@sonship said
@divegeester

I perceive that this OP by Ghost of a Duke has some traction only because of your inappropriate level of esteem of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee.

Having high esteem for some servants of God is inappropriate?
Why?

[quote]
They are just fallible men but there are indications from the breadth of your posting about them that they are perhaps ...[text shortened]... emed them as men would could not make mistakes?

You cannot and are sounding another false alarm.

You have elevated the teachings of a man above the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. That says it all about where you have placed this man.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Here's my ten cents worth on Watchman Nee, Witness Lee and the LCM.

"The Normal Christian Life" was a classic which was well received and circulated in the church in the '60s and '70s (and even later). It was followed by such books as "Sit, Walk, Stand" and "The Normal Christian Church Life" and "The Spiritual Man" which had three volumes.

All his books have value and deserve to be read. However, his later books become increasingly more radical and obtuse, meaning hard to follow and difficult to put into practice.

As happens with many such (lets call them) radicals, revolutionaries and visionaries, he, and particularly his disciple, Witness Lee, became obsessed with the idea that they ONLY had the full truth and that they were sent by God to revive the Church, or at least save a Remnant out of the church.

Some years ago in a long discussion with sonship I related my personal experience with the Local Church Movement (LCM).
We had over many years hosted a Home Church consisting of some six families from various backgrounds and denominations, who met weekly for fellowship and worship.

One day one of our members (a long time personal friend of mine) got into contact with someone from the LCM, who convinced them that our group was in error (even though we were non-denominational) and that the only ground for getting together was on the basis of LOCALITY.

This did not make any sense to the rest of us at all! We were already meeting not as a denomination, but as a group of Christians in Pretoria. But no, they pulled out and started a new group, at first only consisting of themselves and one other couple and started calling themselves "The Church in Pretoria".

Now this friend of mine was an extremely clever guy. He was at the time high in government (President of the Human Sciences Research Council) and later became the Rector of the University of Stellenbosch.

I say this merely to emphasise the power of brainwashing possible. Even after many friendly and sometimes heated discussions between us, he could not or would not see that far from uniting the church in Pretoria, all that he was in fact doing was starting YET ANOTHER DENOMINATION!

So, to summarise, from good and sound beginnings, Watchman Nee's teachings (and Witness Lee's follow up) got to their head and they began to have delusions of power. "We are the people, and wisdom will die with us".

Now they are so exclusive that they openly proclaim (as sonship does repeatedly) that THEY ONLY are the true church, everybody else is wrong, and they use Bible words about apostasy and separateness to justify this.

Really sad.

@caljust said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Here's my ten cents worth on Watchman Nee, Witness Lee and the LCM.

"The Normal Christian Life" was a classic which was well received and circulated in the church in the '60s and '70s (and even later). It was followed by such books as "Sit, Walk, Stand" and "The Normal Christian Church Life" and "The Spiritual Man" which had three volumes.

All his book ...[text shortened]... began to have delusions of power. "We are the people, and wisdom will die with us".

Really sad.

Insightful. Thanks for the contribution to the thread.

@caljust said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Here's my ten cents worth on Watchman Nee, Witness Lee and the LCM.

"The Normal Christian Life" was a classic which was well received and circulated in the church in the '60s and '70s (and even later). It was followed by such books as "Sit, Walk, Stand" and "The Normal Christian Church Life" and "The Spiritual Man" which had three volumes.

All his book ...[text shortened]... is wrong, and they use Bible words about apostasy and separateness to justify this.

Really sad.

Interesting background, thanks.

I know some posters here think I get on sonship’s case but in the last year of so especially I have increasingly seen this cultish attitude being reflected.

I would ask him but he won’t answer “sonship is the LCM the only true church of Jesus Christ?”

Let’s see if/how he responds.

@caljust said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
As happens with many such (lets call them) radicals, revolutionaries and visionaries, he, and particularly his disciple, Witness Lee, became obsessed with the idea that they ONLY had the full truth and that they were sent by God to revive the Church, or at least save a Remnant out of the church.

I completely agree with this insight. There have been many men down the years who seemed to have a gift of ministry from God but as they progress something goes wrong.

I am also a non-denominational Christian btw. I find organisation corporate religion to be man-made, man-glorifying and repellent.

@divegeester said
I completely agree with this insight. There have been many men down the years who seemed to have a gift of ministry from God but as they progress something goes wrong.

I am also a non-denominational Christian btw. I find organisation corporate religion to be man-made, man-glorifying and repellent.

If their doctrine is right then things can never go wrong. God is with all who preach the right doctrine.

@rajk999 said
If their doctrine is right then things can never go wrong. God is with all who preach the right doctrine.

Ministers of God can become self orientated wether they have the right doctrine or not.

@divegeester [i]said

I would ask him but he won’t answer “sonship is the LCM the only true church of Jesus Christ?”
Let’s see if/how he responds.

He has already responded in the affirmative several times, when he dismisses all other Christians, i.e. by name all Catholics and all Protestants.

He left out the Eastern Orthodox, but I am pretty sure he would exclude them too had he known about them. 😉

The interesting thing to note is all the Bible verses he quotes. Clearly, nobody argues that those verses are not in the Bible, but I would certainly argue that all the verses which he applies to himself and the LCM (e.g. being the manchild, or the overcomers, or the remnant) can be equally applied to those whom he dismisses, and the verses that he applies to the Outsiders and Others (e.g. being apostate, deluded, in sin etc etc) can be applied to the LCM.

It all depends on your point of view.

Should at least be a sobering thought.

@caljust said
He has already responded in the affirmative several times, when he dismisses all other Christians, i.e. by name all Catholics and all Protestants.

He left out the Eastern Orthodox, but I am pretty sure he would exclude them too had he known about them. 😉

The interesting thing to note is all the Bible verses he quotes. Clearly, nobody argues that those verses are not in ...[text shortened]... plied to the LCM.

It all depends on your point of view.

Should at least be a sobering thought.

I’ve sometimes wondered why I clash with sonship as much as I do.

Ok he has strange beliefs such as beings on other planets who are deterred by them being able to observe the carnage in hell (yes... it is well discussed in here), but often I find some of his more innocuous posts grating and now I know why, what I have been suspecting for a while. Religious exclusivity. Cultism.

@Rajk999

You have elevated the teachings of a man above the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. That says it all about where you have placed this man.

No I have not. I wrote many posts with no mention of either. And I wrote plenty of posts referring to other people.

Of late the concerted attack on these two has resulted in their names being mentioned more.

I started a thread on a wonderful book by Mary McDonough, Gods Plan of Redemption which some posters were quick to cease opportunity to derail and clutter up with protest.