Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]I know of no Christian denomination that declares baptism is necessary for salvation.

The Catholic Church and Orthodox Church both teach the necessity of baptism. As I explained earlier, however, baptism need not be a ritual of water -- martyrdom and the desire for baptism would both confer the effects of sacramental baptism.[/b]

Being raised a catholic and now thankfully in "recovery" from that whole ordeal I am very aware of the seven sacraments. As I said earlier,they are clearly wrong and distorting the teachings of Christ.

I am sorry if that offends any catholics. That is not my intention.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I am not going to argue about the validity of baptism by infusion or aspersion or the validity of infant baptism. I think tradition is a reliable guide in this regard.

Man made spritual traditions are condemned by God.

Colossians 2:8 (New International Version, ©2010)

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.

These hollow and deceptive philosophies and traditions that were formulated decades after Jesus death, such as baptism of infants as one example, were given as warnings to us all that they would happen.
This scripture is obviously not speaking of simple traditions that were not of a religious sense but ones of a spritual nature.
They were given as warning that they would happen by ones who did not follow the teachings of Jesus.

Acts 20:28-30 (New International Version, ©2010)
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

So no...there is no arguement here. The founding Fathers of a certian church did not follow Jesus's simple and clear teachings and examples. He said "he came to add no futher burdens but to actually lighten them".
But history has shown how a certian church not only added burdens but would actually kill ones who did not submit to it's rules or even spoke out against it.
And one terrifying tactic was to scare ones into believing in a paganistic teaching that was never taught in the Bible ever, of burning in some dark pit forever if you didn't submit to their church.

Originally posted by galveston75
Man made spritual traditions are condemned by God.

Colossians 2:8 (New International Version, ©2010)

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.

These hollow and deceptive philosophies and traditi n the Bible ever, of burning in some dark pit forever if you didn't submit to their church.

Personally, I think your creepy religion is the wolf that Christ is referring to. The idea that Jesus is the archangel Michael or that blood donation is prohibited is a total corruption of Scripture. Deceptive philosophy indeed.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Personally, I think your creepy religion is the wolf that Christ is referring to. The idea that Jesus is the archangel Michael or that blood donation is prohibited is a total corruption of Scripture. Deceptive philosophy indeed.

You always go back to that. It's getting old my friend and your refusing to see the truth of the traditions of men that are taught there that were clearly foretold in the Bible. I still find it weird you defend them as you are athiest...

Originally posted by Doward
virtually all Christian denominations decalre baptism as a necessary rite for salvation. I would like to pose this scenerio for your consideration:

A man, 28 yeras old, grew up in a non-religous home. He was never baptized, nor had much interest in faith. An event in his life triggers a search for "greater truth" leading him to accept Christ as his savior ...[text shortened]... ernal damnation? If yes, then why do we baptize? If no, what significance is there in baptism?

When an individual accepts Christ as their saviour, i.e. trusts in what Jesus did on the cross on their behalf, then that individual is saved by grace through faith.

Permanently. Nothing added. But there are those who think they need to do a little something to make sure. Those who advocate "works" as a necessary ingredient are unusually neck deep in legalism as a means of control over others.

Christ will make you free.


Now "sanctification" is another thing altogether. If one intends to live the life of Christ, then they had better dig in because it's going to be a rough ride.

Originally posted by utherpendragon
Being raised a catholic and now thankfully in "recovery" from that whole ordeal I am very aware of the seven sacraments. As I said earlier,they are clearly wrong and distorting the teachings of Christ.

I am sorry if that offends any catholics. That is not my intention.

The real friends I have in real life can be counted on one hand. Two of them are 'recovering Catholics'. Both I would describe as spiritual people (now).
Yet with both I see howly deeply ingrained that sense of (Catholic)doubt is. One is fifty something male, the other is forty something female.

Originally posted by josephw
When an individual accepts Christ as their saviour, i.e. trusts in what Jesus did on the cross on their behalf, then that individual is saved by grace through faith.

Permanently. Nothing added. But there are those who think they need to do a little something to make sure. Those who advocate "works" as a necessary ingredient are unusually neck deep in lega ...[text shortened]... live the life of Christ, then they had better dig in because it's going to be a rough ride.

So once one accepts Jesus, there are no works involved? That's not what Jesus said. Check out John 14: 11,12:

John 14:11-12 (New International Version, ©2010)
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Also check out James 2:26:

James 2:26 (New International Version, ©2010)
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Also John 9:4:

John 9:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.

It seems for some reason ones who think they are saved NOW are exempt from the works Jesus told his followers to do as he had set by example himself such as the door to door work. If ones who accept Jesus were saved and had no further responsabilities to follow these commands, then Jesus's followers of that time would have stopped any works they were doing with Jesus throughout all the land there and would have said "we're saved and no longer have to do works". But that is not the case according to the Bible as many continued on with the preaching and teaching work Jesus told them to do until they died.
They were told by Jesus to do this to all the nations and never said that once you accept me your work is finished.
So if one is truely following Jesus they know what their doing is following his clear command and not doing something to "just make sure".

Originally posted by galveston75
So once one accepts Jesus, there are no works involved? That's not what Jesus said. Check out John 14: 11,12:

John 14:11-12 (New International Version, ©2010)
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do t ...[text shortened]... t their doing is following his clear command and not doing something to "just make sure".

So you believe you have to do "works" to get saved?

Or maybe you think one needs to do "works" in order to stay saved.

One thing for sure is you're not paying attention to what I said.

What did you "do" to get saved?

Originally posted by josephw
So you believe you have to do "works" to get saved?

Or maybe you think one needs to do "works" in order to stay saved.

One thing for sure is you're not paying attention to what I said.

What did you "do" to get saved?

Remember that in addition to "works" you also have to be a paid up member of the JW organisation - otherwise you are not in the book.

Originally posted by divegeester
Remember that in addition to "works" you also have to be a paid up member of the JW organisation - otherwise you are not in the book.

Paid up? What does that mean?

Originally posted by josephw
So you believe you have to do "works" to get saved?

Or maybe you think one needs to do "works" in order to stay saved.

One thing for sure is you're not paying attention to what I said.

What did you "do" to get saved?

Did I say that? Does the Bible say that? No.... Do you even understand the works Jesus said to do and what the works are for?
And no I'm not saved and neither is anyone else on this earth. The bible clearly says "only those that endure to the end will be saved".
I don't think the end of this system that Jesus was talking about has happened yet.
And I quoted a few scriptures in my last post that need answering so do you understand what they say?

Originally posted by divegeester
Remember that in addition to "works" you also have to be a paid up member of the JW organisation - otherwise you are not in the book.

Yes I know. I was there once.

It's a common error among all "religious" persons to believe that one must needs "do" or "perform" some "work" or "service" in order to have/get/receive/acquire eternal life.

The Bible is clear that eternal life is a gift, given freely by the one who created life.

The only thing one can "do" without doing anything, to receive that gift, is to believe and trust in what God has done on the behalf of the one who believes.

But that's just salvation I'm talking about. Living the Christian life is another thing, and requires that one work hard indeed.

Originally posted by galveston75
Did I say that? Does the Bible say that? No.... Do you even understand the works Jesus said to do and what the works are for?
And no I'm not saved and neither is anyone else on this earth. The bible clearly says "only those that endure to the end will be saved".
I don't think the end of this system that Jesus was talking about has happened yet.
And ...[text shortened]... ted a few scriptures in my last post that need answering so do you understand what they say?

You're a novice galveston.

Answer the question. What did you do to receive the gift of eternal life?

Originally posted by josephw
You're a novice galveston.

Answer the question. What did you [b]do to receive the gift of eternal life?[/b]

I answered your question so perhaps you should answer mine..or can't you?

Originally posted by galveston75
I answered your question so perhaps you should answer mine..or can't you?

You did answer the question.

"And no I'm not saved and neither is anyone else on this earth".


That's right galveston, you're not saved because you haven't believed that what Jesus did on the cross is good enough to get you saved.

Like all good "religious" persons you think you can "do" or "work" your way to salvation.

That's what you believe because you follow like sheep every word the Watchtower tells you.

If you think you can be righteous enough to be saved, then you had better keep the law perfectly. Because you are under the law and not under grace.

That is something you had better learn quickly.