Originally posted by sonhouse
So god could commit suicide then. If so, how do we know it hasn't already done that, like after Jesus and after Mohammed, it killed itself. How would we know?

Indeed, god could have done away with himself already.

Originally posted by knightmeister
[b]. God throws all that out the window and says all that posturing and military might will be humbled one day by little ol' love.

one day, huh? if it didn't happen in any of your ancestor's lifetimes, what makes you think it will happen at all? that's the real shame with non-athiests - you are all too willing to trade your life in for some promise of reward in the future. what a waste to believe - as my girlfriend's mother does - that this life is just a station to pass through, or a test to pass. this is it, enjoy it, celebrate it. this doesn't mean screw anybody over for a bit of fun. there are still plenty of reasons to act with kindness and love toward your neighbor besides divine command. buddhists are athiests by a christian's standards and they seem pretty moral to me.

Originally posted by stocken
I'm not sure I follow you there. That may be attributed to my inferior intelligence, though. So, nothing personal. 🙂

What can I say? To me it doesn't really matter if love will persist my own existence. I should certainly hope that my offspring will have the fortune of living in a world where people care about each other. Where they strive to mai ...[text shortened]... at he's given me. If God doesn't exist (as I suspect), well... all is fine.

I also don't see the need to believe in a God to live a life of love neccessarily. I agree. I don't need to believe in God , it's just the way it is. Do you need to believe in the sun to bask in it's warmth? , no of course not, you just enjoy the sun warming you . If someone then said , "why do you need to believe in the sun to keep you warm? , I'm as warm as toast and I don't believe in the sun." You would respond by saying "well the sun keeps you warm as well whether you believe in it or not".
As for God not showing himself.....hmm you're right . Maybe he should have turned himself into a man or something and lived amongst us...that might have given us a clue....but no ...he hasn't done a thing to show himself!

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm still trying to figure out what Atheists actually believe. I may have been hasty to assume that Atheism = Nihilism without exceptions but I still think there's a case to answer. We theists are clear about what rationale backs up our conviction in love, morality and meaning because we believe these things are rooted in reality. As far as I can tell llectualisation and philosophical beating about the bush - let's get real for a change!)

Atheists as a group do not believe anything. Individual atheists will have their own individual beliefs, but these beliefs are not part of their atheism. I don't really understand what Nihilism is so I don't know if I am a Nihilist; I don't think so.

What does it mean for "morality" and "meaning" to be "rooted in reality"? I don't understand that idea. Of course love exists; it's an emotion I have experienced myself, so I know it exists. Are you saying love is something other than an emotion?

Morality is matter of opinion. I don't talk about moral values being real things, but they are; simply because different people have different moral values doesn't mean those values are not real. Moral values are values; they are therefore of importance to people because that's what values are; things that are important to people! If money is important to me, I value it; if it's not important to me, I don't value it.

What does "ultimate nature of reality" mean?

Question....if everyone (you included) in the world (alive or long dead) thought that torturing children was Ok would that make it Ok or would there still be a case for saying it was actually wrong?

This act will be ok or not only in an individual's opinion. If everyone thought it was ok, it would be. Okayness is a judgement a person makes about something.

How can I give a heartfelt response when you just told me what my heartfelt response would be in this artificial scenario of yours?

Originally posted by Halitose
Ah... the Euthyphro Dilemma. As Aquinas argued, morality is ingrained in God's character, so you are asking the wrong question -- the question should be whether God would give such a command.

If you believe that the Old Testament is literally true, your God gave such a command many times. As you surely know this, you either A) are being disingenous; or B) don't believe that the OT is the literal Word of God. Which is it?

Originally posted by no1marauder
If you believe that the Old Testament is literally true, your God gave such a command many times. As you surely know this, you either A) are being disingenous; or B) don't believe that the OT is the literal Word of God. Which is it?

The answer is quite obvious, isn't it?

Originally posted by Halitose
The answer is quite obvious, isn't it?

No it isn't, so please answer the question. The OT is being untruthful where it says God commanded the execution of children and other innocents?

Originally posted by no1marauder
No it isn't, so please answer the question. The OT is being untruthful where it says God commanded the execution of children and other innocents?

i can feel it building.... [drumroll starts]

Originally posted by no1marauder
No it isn't, so please answer the question. The OT is being untruthful where it says God commanded the execution of children and other innocents?

Perhaps you would like to support your absurd claim? Lest you change the ground rules, you are claiming:
1. God commanded the execution of children and innocents; and
2. Doing so was immoral.

Looking forward to your twisted logic.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Perhaps you would like to support your absurd claim? Lest you change the ground rules, you are claiming:
1. God commanded the execution of children and innocents; and
2. Doing so was immoral.

Looking forward to your twisted logic.

I didn't claim (2) at all, though it seems self-evident. I was responding to Halitose's doubt that his God would order someone to stick a butcher knife through a baby. The OT is replete with examples where God did order the slaughter of children, many of which have been discussed here (Medianite Massacre, Jericho, pretty much the entire book of Joshua, etc.).

Do you deny this?

EDIT: Your world is truly upside down to regard (1) and (2) put together as an "absurd claim".