24 Oct 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDo you think the Bible is supposed to contain a listing of the names of all the angels and archangels? Why? Just to satisfy the JW?
Then name the other as mentioned in scripture, that being the Bible as we have it today.
Assumptions cannot lead to reliable conclusions.
24 Oct 11
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRight. So you would translate proskyneo as 'bow down' (or something like that) everywhere it appears in the NT? Is there any Greek word that appears in the NT that you would consistently translate as 'worship' (e.g., 'sebo')?
Consistency should be kept throughout me thinks, and the reader should be allowed to
use their discernment whether an act of obeisance is one of worship or not. It seems
to me that to translate it inconsistently and to determine in some instances that its
obeisance and others that its worship is to impose ones bias upon scripture.
24 Oct 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999so you cannot name any, thank you. Once gain there are only two angels named in
Do you think the Bible is supposed to contain a listing of the names of all the angels and archangels? Why? Just to satisfy the JW?
Assumptions cannot lead to reliable conclusions.
scripture and one archangel, Michael. This is accurate and this can be determined
from scripture.
24 Oct 11
Originally posted by bbarrmmm, this is such an excellent question that it needs some thought. I guess that
Right. So you would translate proskyneo as 'bow down' (or something like that) everywhere it appears in the NT? Is there any Greek word that appears in the NT that you would consistently translate as 'worship' (e.g., 'sebo')?
the context must be examined and evaluated and a decision rendered as to whether
the text requires a strict adherence to doing obeisance, bowing down or whether it
requires to be evaluated as worship. Please consider the following,
The Greek verb latreuo (Lu 1:74; 2:37; 4:8; Ac 7:7) and the noun latreia (Joh 16:2;
Ro 9:4) convey the idea of rendering not merely an ordinary, mundane service but
sacred service.
The Greek word proskyneo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hishtachawah in
expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term proskyneo is
used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Mt 18:26) as well as the
act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their
glory. (Mt 4:8, 9) Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have
signified submission to Satan and made himself the Devil’s servant. But Jesus
refused, saying: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must
worship [form of Gr. proskyneo or, in the Deuteronomy account that Jesus was
quoting, Heb. hishtachawah], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service
[form of Gr. latreuo or Heb. avadh].’” (Mt 4:10; De 5:9; 6:13) Similarly, worship,
obeisance, or bowing down to “the wild beast” and its “image” is linked with service,
for the worshipers are identified as supporters of “the wild beast” and its “image” by
having a mark either on the hand (with which one serves) or on the forehead (for
all to see). Since the Devil gives the wild beast its authority, worshiping the wild
beast means, in reality, worshiping or serving the Devil.—Re 13:4, 15-17; 14:9-11.
Other Greek words associated with worship are drawn from eusebeo, threskeuo,
and sebomai. The word eusebeo means “give godly devotion to” or “venerate,
revere.” At Acts 17:23 this term is used with reference to the godly devotion or
veneration that the men of Athens were giving to an “Unknown God.” From
threskeuo comes the noun threskeia, understood to designate a “form of worship,”
whether true or false. (Ac 26:5; Col 2:18) The true worship practiced by Christians
was marked by genuine concern for the poor and complete separateness from the
ungodly world. (Jas 1:26, 27) The word sebomai (Mt 15:9; Mr 7:7; Ac 18:7; 19:27)
and the related term sebazomai (Ro 1:25) mean “revere; venerate; worship.”
Objects of worship or of devotion are designated by the noun sebasma. (Ac 17:23;
2Th 2:4) Two other terms are from the same verb stem, with the prefix Theos, God.
These are theosebes, meaning “God-revering” (Joh 9:31), and theosebeia, denoting
“reverence of God.” (1Ti 2:10) These two terms correspond somewhat to the
German word for “public worship,” namely, Gottesdienst (a combination of “God” and
“service&rdquo😉.
24 Oct 11
Originally posted by bbarrI am quoting from "THE OTHER BIBLE" Jewish Pseudepigrapha,
What translation is that? The passage you're quoting is Chapter 19, Verse 1 of Enoch. But in none of the translations I've read has that verse started off with the term 'archangel'; they just say 'Uriel'.
Christian Apocrypha, Gnostic Scriptures, Kabbalah, Dead Sea Scrolls
1984, Edited with Introductions by Willis Barnstone
The translation is stated to be from R.H. Charles, The Apocrypha and
Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament
24 Oct 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobiePutting rules on God is a wee bit egotistical, eh?
Consistency should be kept throughout me thinks, and the reader should be allowed to
use their discernment whether an act of obeisance is one of worship or not. It seems
to me that to translate it inconsistently and to determine in some instances that its
obeisance and others that its worship is to impose ones bias upon scripture.
He tells us in the Bible what He chooses us to know.
The Bible is NOT the end-all be-all of knowledge about God. Some things He might wish to keep to Himself, ever think of that? But no, you'd rather put rules on God.
I told you once about how pride is a sin, Robbie.
24 Oct 11
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Originally posted by Suziannewhat is this? we use the bible to establish points and we are damned.
Putting rules on God is a wee bit egotistical, eh?
He tells us in the Bible what He chooses us to know.
The Bible is NOT the end-all be-all of knowledge about God. Some things He might wish to keep to Himself, ever think of that? But no, you'd rather put rules on God.
I told you once about how pride is a sin, Robbie.
(Acts 17:2-3) . . .So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three
sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by
references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer. . .
24 Oct 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat still does not mean EVERYTHING about God is in the scripture.
what is this? we use the bible to establish points and we are damned.
(Acts 17:2-3) . . .So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three
sabbaths he reasoned with them [b]from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by
references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer. . .[/b]
24 Oct 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThanks, this is very good (and thanks for humoring my questions!). More later, after I've given this some thought.
mmm, this is such an excellent question that it needs some thought. I guess that
the context must be examined and evaluated and a decision rendered as to whether
the text requires a strict adherence to doing obeisance, bowing down or whether it
requires to be evaluated as worship. Please consider the following,
The Greek verb latreuo (Lu ...[text shortened]... German word for “public worship,” namely, Gottesdienst (a combination of “God” and
“service&rdquo😉.