18 Jun 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeO Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
You are talking nonsense about things not existent in reality.
You claim to be talking about 'spiritual' [nonsense] things, and yet spend a large proportion
of your time denying evolution [and the entire rest of science].
Which [evolution] is a NATURAL process that occurs in the real (natural) world that is real and observed.
So if yo ...[text shortened]... and our observations of the nature of reality.
Science works, religion doesn't.
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
(1 Timothy 6:20-21 KJV)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
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18 Jun 12
Originally posted by RJHindsNot just spam, but boring moronic spam.
O Timothy, [b]keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
(1 Timothy 6:20-21 KJV)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord![/b]
18 Jun 12
5 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
As I said before, [b]the 1st and 2nd resurrections are for humans only. The first resurrection was obviously only for the believing humans. A resurrection means the material body and soul are reuited by the Spirit of God and become alive again just like Christ's body was resurrected. I know the JWs don't believe Christ was resurrected with His materi hrist if He had come to torment them before their time.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord![/b]
As I said before, the 1st and 2nd resurrections are for humans only. The first resurrection was obviously only for the believing humans.
This does so far not effect what I have said. So far this is inconsequential to my explanation. Continue though. I am open minded to weigh your alternative fairly.
A resurrection means the material body and soul are reuited by the Spirit of God and become alive again just like Christ's body was resurrected.
So far this I agree with. So far it is inconsequential to what I have said.
Where's the clencher ? Continue.
I know the JWs don't believe Christ was resurrected with His material body, however, I believe you do believe that, don't you?
No. I do not follow the JWs teaching on Christ's resurrection.
Still looking for your clencher.
This 2nd resurrection is a physical bodily resurrection just like the resurrection for Jesus and for those in the 1st resurrection.
Satan and his angels, including his demons, which has alresdy been proved to be unclean spirit beings have no physical bodies to be resurrected.
But it is the latter part of this sentence which is the thing you are trying to PROVE. I know you can state your belief in a way of affirming it. But this I cannot count as a clencher because this is the very matter which you have to show rather than just state.
a.) Yes, agree that the angels and demons have proved themselves to be unclean. But God still judges according to DEEDS, ACTIONS, THINGS DONE. God is still righteous and specific.
Whether human or non-human, God being righteous should judge because of transgressions incured - ie. "And Jehovah God said to the serpent, Because you have done THIS ... You are cursed more than all the cattle" (Gen. 3:14)
You see, there is a certain "THIS" , a specific DEED, a specific transgression that God calls into judgment.
My point here is that we [should] [edited] expect that God judges according to specific sins, transgressions, evil actions, particular iniquities, particular DEEDS even when it comes to non human - super human beings.
Look at Job 4:18 - " ... He [God] charges His angels with error."
I understand this to mean that the angels which joined Satan have been charged by God with "ERROR". What they DID as a deed comes under judgmnt.
My point here is that it should not be thought strange that the demons have RECORDED DEEDS that will come under judgment. There is no cause for alarm because we are told that demons stand before God to be judged.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it ... and they were judged, each of them, according to their works." (Rev. 20:13)
If, as I believe, the dead include dead humans and dead other creatures who are disembodied, there is no problem to their being judged for their recorded deeds. So far what you submit here contains no major obstacle to what I explained.
So they can not be the dead referred to because these dead are being resurrected in the 2nd resurrection.
I don't see a problem. "And the DEAD were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works." (20:12b)
If beings had WORKS worthy to be recorded and judged, it does not matter if they are human or evil angels or DEAD beings given up by the sea to be judged.
Okay, John forgets to tell us when Satan's angels, including his demons, are actually casts into the lake of fire and brimstone.
Well, I don't know about saying he "forgot." We know from elsewhere that the devil and his angels will be judged.
However, from verse 10 where the devil is said to have been cast there after the beast and the false prophet, we can infer that his angels, including his demons, are included with the possessed beast and the possessed false prophet. Satan the devil is the last of the demons to be cast there to be tormented.
You could certainly infer something like that. That understanding is not mandatory.
I think your objection is that non-humans should not be judged for DEEDS and therefore reference to scrolls recording their deeds would be wrong. I see no reason to hold that non-human beings who are capable of DEEDS, as angels and demons are, would be exempt from those judgment worthy deeds from being brought back to their memory at the great white throne.
I repeat the dead can not possibly be demons because demons are spirit beings that don't die and nothing has ever been said about the good and bad deeds of demons being written down in books.
That is what you are trying to prove. I know that you can state it and repeat it.
So I think we hit an empass and only repetition will follow. But I would think that the whole reason you are fighting for this kind of understanding is to AVOID believing that there could be an age of physical beings who were not human, who followed Satan in some earth before the six days of Genesis 1.
Because I am not appalled at the thought that the earth could have had a PREVIOUS use to Lucifer, my view is not a problem. If I felt that I had to by all means protect a doctrine of ONLY HEAVEN existing before Genesis 1 verse 2 then I might be arguing as you are.
Also by deductive reasoning, they should have already been thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, which has been prepared for them. They need no further judgment, if it has already been prepared for them. Simple deductive reasoning.
I don't see that at all as having to be the case. By logical reasoning I could conclude that what has been prepared for them, they eventually, at some time, will partake. That is all.
There are no verses that say Satan the devil and his angels, including demons, are dead. Where is this verse that says demons are dead or can die?
I have given you the verse and a lot of reasons WHY I think the dead there are disembodied beings who followed Satan. You of course may say that you do not believe those reasons. And you have said so.
But, one thing I have not yet said. Is it not perculiar that the man possessed by the legion of demons hung around a GRAVE YARD ?
"And when He came out of the boat, immediately, from out of the TOMBS, a man with an unclean spirit met Him. Who had his dwelling among the TOMBS. And no one could bind him any longer, not even with a chain ... And continually night and day. among the tombs and in the mountains, he cried out amd gashed himself with stones." (Mark 5:2-5)
I think the message is that the demons were the dead, and they felt to hold the man where death is prevalent and strong, where tombs of the dead are.
Their fate is to be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where they are to be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10) This is what I think the demons were referring to when they asked Christ if He had come to torment them before their time.
I agree.
IN THE MEAN TIME ... they drove the pigs down into the sea. Apparently, just escaping to the pigs' bodies was not enough. Being still terrified of the power of the Son of God, perhaps they tried to take the possessed swine bodies down into the SEA. They knew that the SEA is where they should be and stay.
But in the end of the millennium the SEA will give them up. And this not for roaming around and bothering humans but for eternal judgment.
18 Jun 12
RJ read again Matthew 8:23 - 34 [ Consider the journey on the boat by Jesus and His disciples to the other side. Consider the reason behind the storm to sink the Lord's boat as He sleep in perfect trust of His Father.
Now consider this. When Jesus was traveling in the boat there was a storm. He REBUKED the wind and the waves.
You do not rebuke non living objects. You rebuke beings that can be scolded. The evil angels were in the air. The evil demons were in the water. They both were trying to stop Jesus from getting over to the other side where He was going to deal with a LEGION of demons.
The reason for the storm to sink to boat was to stop Jesus from casting out a LEGION of demons. And Jesus REBUKED the evil beings behind the storm.
What? Know ye not that in Job Satan stirred up a killing wind and killed some of Job's children ?
This stengthens the idea, I think, of the demons being related to the sea.
The fallen angels and the demons are at warfare with the Son of God. A strategic victory was about to be secured by Christ dealing with the demoniac with a LEGION of unclean spirits. So they tried unsucccessfully to sink His boat on the way to the other side.
He rebuked not non-living matter. He rebuked the evil beings BEHIND the storm.
18 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillAngels are immortal:As I said before, the 1st and 2nd resurrections are for humans only. The first resurrection was obviously only for the believing humans.
This does so far not effect what I have said. So far this is inconsequential to my explanation. Continue though. I am open minded to weigh your alternative fairly.
[quote]
A resurrection means not for roaming around and bothering humans but for eternal judgment.
And they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. (Luke 20:36)
I have repeatedly given you verses that say demons are unclean spirit beings. There is nowhere in the Holy Bible that says demons have ever had physical bodies of their own nor is there any implication that that is the case. The bottomless pit is not a physical place, like the oceans and the seas.
Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
(Matthew 7:14 KJV)
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
(Matthew 24:11 KJV)
And from Paul to Timothy:
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
(1 Timothy 6:20-21 KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, avoid these profane and vain babblings and imaginations of false prophets and teachers conforming to oppositions of false science, like the old age of the Earth and evolution.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
18 Jun 12
4 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
Angels are immortal:
And they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. (Luke 20:36)
I have repeatedly given you verses that say demons are unclean spirit beings. There is nowhere in the Holy Bible that says demons have ever had physical bodies of their own nor is there any implication that that is the case. The bottomless pit is not a physica nce, like the old age of the Earth and evolution.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord![/b]
Angels are immortal:
And they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. (Luke 20:36)
Now this saying of Christ is said concerning the saved people who in the resurrection will not marry. They are like the good angels.
They are not to be like the bad angels.
Now, we are treading on an area which I think is obscure. What is death to an angel ? That I may not be certain of.
However, God DOES tell the evil angels that they will die like men. That is in Psalm 82. [edited]
"God stands in the congregation of God; He judges in the midst of the gods. (v.1)
I said, You are gods, And al of you are sons of the Most High.
Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like on of the prionces." (v.6,7)
Without expounding the entire Psalm 82, these few verses show us that the bad angels are called "the gods" and "sons of the Most High" Of course this refers to their original origin. They were regular angels with the other "sons of God" or "morning stars" who sung in joy at the creation of the world:
"Onto what were its bases sunk, Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:6,7)
In Psalm 82 the sons of the Most High, the "gods" refer to the angels. Because they are being rebuked they must be the bad angels who followed Satan. Now God tells these angels that they will die like men.
1.) Their dying like men is to take place in the future. So it is a warning.
2.) Because they "WILL die" it must mean that while they are in this present state, they are not dead. That is as far as angel life goes.
3.) This means to me that the bad angels cannot be thought of as being DEAD.
4.) While the bad angels are not DEAD but WILL die as they make havoc on the earth, the demons are already "the dead" who are disembodied.
Now I will grant you that this has some aspects which I cannot fully explain. There are some mysterious things in this passage. I cannot really say what ANGEL death means. Perhaps it is to be thrown into the lake of fire.
But I am pretty sure that apart from Psalm 82 I can find not other passage refering to angel death. In the meantime there are unclean spirits who desperately seek to enter into the bodies of sinners, IF they give them the way to do that through their iniquities or occult practices. These are "the dead" already who are -
1.) very intellligent and evil
2.) not human
3.) under Satan's control
4.) disembodied spiritual things
They a different kind of being from the angels who WILL die like men.
These evil unclean beings are already the disembodied dead.
I think they had physical bodies of some sort.
I have repeatedly given you verses that say demons are unclean spirit beings.
And with that I have no argument. Of course the demons are unclean spirit beings. And they CRAVE to have bodies.
Look. It is not just a matter of them wanting to do mischief by invading human bodies. It seems that they CRAVE to be at REST in human bodies.
This should tell you that they long to be COMPLETED. They have been rendered incomplete. I believe that judgment and death in the preadamic age rendered them incomplete and disembodied.
For this reason I do not regard them as merely mischevious fallen angels. The fallen angels have what they need. They are just following the wrong leader and are doomed to share his miserable destiny. To join Satan in fighting against man and especially the people of God, they hope to POSTPONE or even stop that terrible destiny and establish their evil kingdom.
The demons have a stake in postponement also. But they CRAVE in a lustful manner to have bodies. They want a human if they get one. They take a PIG if it means getting away from judgment by the Son of God.
We are now in repeat mode.
There is nowhere in the Holy Bible that says demons have ever had physical bodies of their own nor is there any implication that that is the case. The bottomless pit is not a physical place, like the oceans and the seas.
The evidences were given. A 6,000 year old earth is the sacred matter which you want to defend. For this reason you are utterly appalled at the thought that this earth could have undergone before ADAM, a Satanic rebellion involving creatures that we know very little about.
Your MAIN concern is to reject the possibility of anything physical and living being in existence before Adam.
I do not have that burden to defend because I know Lucifer had a vast empire and kingdom. All kinds of things were probably a part of that dominion which he had.
Your concern is to keep Lucifer in Heaven without any earth that could have had some purpose before the prophet saw the earth waste and void on the first day of Genesis 1.
Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
(Matthew 7:14 KJV)
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
(Matthew 24:11 KJV)
now you're pulling out your heavy guns.
If I don't agree with your Young Earth, Heaven Only Lucifer, Demons are Angels, then I am a false prophet in sheep's clothing.
I however, do not say that you are a false prophet because you do not see these things. Don't worry about me.
And from Paul to Timothy:
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
(1 Timothy 6:20-21 KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, avoid these profane and vain babblings and imaginations of false prophets and teachers conforming to oppositions of false science, like the old age of the Earth and evolution.
No. RJHinds. Just becasue I don't go along the same way with your 6,000 year old physical universe, I do not accept these charges. My conscience concerning these teachings is fully at peace.
19 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillAnd they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. (Luke 20:36)Angels are immortal:
And they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. (Luke 20:36)
Now this saying of Christ is said concerning the saved people who in the resurrection will not marry. They are like the good angels.
They are not to be like the bad angels.
Now, we are treading on an area which I think is obscure. ...[text shortened]... ges. My conscience concerning these teachings is fully at peace.
This above verse refers to those believers resurrected with immortal bodies that can not die any more for they have bodies like Christ; and in this respect, they are equal to God's angels, who can not die because they have spirit bodies.
When I quoted verses like the following:
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
(Matthew 24:11 KJV)
I was not saying you were a false prophet or teacher, but that you are one of those many that are deceived by them. It is meant as a warning to you like the one Paul gave to Timothy.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, avoid these profane and vain babblings and imaginations of false prophets and teachers conforming to oppositions of false science, like the old age of the Earth and evolution.
Psalm 82 is another example where you have been deceived by false teachings. The true understanding of this psalm is that God has decided to pass judgment on the Judges of the people. These Judges are called "gods" meaning "mighty ones" because they have been put in the position to govern over the government of the people in place of God. Psalm 58:1 refers to these same judges:
Do you indeed speak righteousness, O gods? Do you judge uprightly O sons of men?
But all these judges are not judging righteously as they should; and since they are only men that have been exalted to positions like gods, their fate will be like all men, for they will die and be judged according to their unjust deeds they have done to the people they have been placed over. These judges are not angels are demons, but only men, who will die like men and judged by God accordingly.
Jesus referred to verse 6 of Psalm 82 in His confrontation with those that accused Him of blaspheming because He claimed equality with God.
(John 10:32-36)
To my statement:
There is nowhere in the Holy Bible that says demons have ever had physical bodies of their own nor is there any implication that that is the case. The bottomless pit is not a physical place, like the oceans and the seas.
You say only, "The evidences were given."
But I have seen no evidence or scripture verse that says demons had physical bodies of their own before possessing the physical bodies of humans. I saw no evidence or scripture verse that says the bottomless pit of the abyss is the oceans or seas. I say it is a spiritual place like paradise in the third Heaven. Or a spritual place like Hades, where the souls of the unrighteous dead stay until judgment. However, this spiritual place is a holding place for the most evil of Satan's demon angels, not for human souls.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
19 Jun 12
7 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]And they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. (Luke 20:36)
This above verse refers to those believers resurrected with immortal bodies that can not die any more for they have bodies like Christ; and in this respect, they are equal to God's angels, who can not die because they have spirit bodies.
When I quoted verses like the followi il of Satan's demon angels, not for human souls.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord![/b]
When I quoted verses like the following:
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
(Matthew 24:11 KJV)
I was not saying you were a false prophet or teacher, but that you are one of those many that are deceived by them. It is meant as a warning to you like the one Paul gave to Timothy.
Thankyou for the warning. However, this is how I also teach.
Is it possible that you could be wrong ?
Maybe you were taught incompletely, partially right but with some errors.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, avoid these profane and vain babblings and imaginations of false prophets and teachers conforming to oppositions of false science, like the old age of the Earth and evolution.
Well, you have raised some objections. I think that in each case I gave you well reasoned defenses from Scripture. I twisted nothing. I gave room to an admition of less than full understanding.
When it comes to a pre-adamic age, I admit that Bible student has to tread carefully. Not much is said about this in the Word of God. But I believe there is something about it. And I think I fielded your objections to that understanding.
If you think this teaching effects any major tenet of the truth of our common faith in Christ, tell me where that is.
Does a pre-adamic age do damage to the doctrine as God the Creator ?
Does a pre-adamic age do damage to the nature of man ?
Does it contradict the incarnation or the Triune God ?
Does a pre-adamic age do damage to the doctrine of redemption or regeneration?
Does it contradict justification by faith, the resurrection, salvation, eternal life, the church, the new heaven and new earth ?
I would say "No indeed." The only thing a pre-adamic earth and age do is contradict an interpretation that before 6,000 ago, only Heaven with no physical beings existed.
Some would argue that it damages the creation story. Well, it contradicts one interpretation of the creation story.
I say this: If there was a pre-adamic age with a pre-adamic earth and a ruling Lucifer, and his realm was judged by God and the earth was torn asunder in that judgment, this statement is still true -
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. But the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep."
If you don't like "But" and "became" then take another good English translation like, Darby -
" ... And the earth was waste and empty ..."
It is still true that "... in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the seaa and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it." (Exodus 20:11)
I don't believe what I have explained to you makes these statements no longer true.
Psalm 82 is another example where you have been deceived by false teachings.
Correction: My use of Psalm 82 is another example of there being more than one way Bible teachers have interpreted a difficult passage of Scripture.
The true understanding of this psalm is that God has decided to pass judgment on the Judges of the people.
That is an interpretation which I think can be improved upon. I think there is a better one.
You see, the angels are the principalities and powers. In this Psalm we get a momentary glimpse into their realm. The phrase "sons of the Most High" must refer to Old Testament "sons of God" who were angels in Job 38 and also, I believe, in Genesis 6.
Paul rendered "Worship Him all you gods" of Psalm 97 as "Let all the angels of God worship Him" (Compare Hebrews 1:6 with Psalm 97:7) . Also "You made him a little lower than the gods [eloihim] " of Psalm 8:5 is referenced in Hebrews 2:9 - "But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels ..."
There is no problem with the "sons of the Most High" being interpreted as angels from Heaven.
These Judges are called "gods" meaning "mighty ones" because they have been put in the position to govern over the government of the people in place of God. Psalm 58:1 refers to these same judges:
Do you indeed speak righteousness, O gods? Do you judge uprightly O sons of men?
My Recovery Version reads there "Do you indeed, O judges, speak righteousness ? DO you judge in uprightness, O sons of men ?" And the footnote at the bottom of the page reads that "Or mighty ones" is an alternate translation and that some versions say "gods".
Well, whoever, these mighty ones, or judges or even "gods" are, it is apparent that they ARE human being "sons of men" .
So I grant that one could use the same logic with Psalm 82's gods. But I don't think it is the best view. That is because Psalm 82 leans more towards these sons of the Most High being superhuman.
"I said, You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you will die like men ..."
Now of course they will die like MEN if they are already MEN. But the contrast is between not dying as immortal angels would not die and dying like mortal men. This argues that the sons of the Most High in this "congregation of elohim" are angels from heaven.
Why would God warn men who will die normally that they would die like men ? Of course like all men, they too will die like men. So I believe the better interpretation is that these ones are the angelic principalities and authorities in the air, rebellious angels who are going to be judged by God.
But all these judges are not judging righteously as they should; and since they are only men that have been exalted to positions like gods, their fate will be like all men, for they will die and be judged according to their unjust deeds they have done to the people they have been placed over. These judges are not angels are demons, but only men, who will die like men and judged by God accordingly.
That is one interpretation. Since it is appointed unto men to die once (Hebrews 9:27) and afterwards judgment, this warning in Psalm 82 may be to angels. I think the contrast of being sons of the Most High yet being warned about death refers to bad angels suffering a death like sinful man.
They will die like human men and they will fall from their position of dignity -
"Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like one of the princes."
Your interpretation has validity. I think this way I explain is better.
Also the first verse "God stands in the congregation of the God [RcV]; He judges in the midst of the gods" reminds me of what Jehovah God actually did in the book of Job -
"Then one day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, Satan also came among them. And Jehovah said to Satan ... etc." (Job 1:6; 2:1)
You have God. You have angels as sons of God. You have a bad one, Satan, coming too. And you have God speaking to and dealing with him. It is very much like the opening of Psalm 82:
"God stands in the congregation of God; He judges in the midst of the gods".
Jesus referred to verse 6 of Psalm 82 in His confrontation with those that accused Him of blaspheming because He claimed equality with God.
(John 10:32-36)
Amen, that Jesus does refer to Psalm 82 in John 10:32-36.
But I think His only point is that in the Old Testament, which they SHOULD be familiar with, those addressed as gods received the word of God.
So why should they oppose Him who says and certainly acts that He is the Son of God?
I honestly don't think Christ's reference of Psalm 82 proves that the "sons of the Most High", the "gods" there must be human. Whatever they were, the were called gods and the word of God came to them.
Why should they accuse Jesus of blasphemy for saying He is the Son of God ?
He certainly was acting much more godly then those "sons of the Most High" in Psalm 82.
To my statement:
There is nowhere in the Holy Bible that says demons have ever had physical bodies of their own nor is there any implication that that is the case. The bottomless pit is not a physical place, like the oceans and the seas.
You say only, "The evidences were given."
But I have seen no evidence or scripture verse that says demons had physical bodies of their own before possessing the physical bodies of humans.
For length's sake I will stop here.
19 Jun 12
4 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]And they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. (Luke 20:36)
This above verse refers to those believers resurrected with immortal bodies that can not die any more for they have bodies like Christ; and in this respect, they are equal to God's angels, who can not die because they have spirit bodies.
When I quoted verses like the followi il of Satan's demon angels, not for human souls.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord![/b]
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
I do! I do!
But I have seen no evidence or scripture verse that says demons had physical bodies of their own before possessing the physical bodies of humans.
I see the indications that this may indeed be the case.
It is too upsetting to your idea of Adam being the first intelligent life with a physical body.
There was quite a bit left lingering over from the rebellion of Lucifer. What you do, is have Satan gather all his forces AFTER his appearance in the garden with Eve. You have the major part of Satan amassing his deceived hosts during the age of Adam. I think this is a mistake.
I think that long before Adam, this evil being had a history of a fermenting revolt, uprising, deception, and righteous judgment. Rather than two concurrent deputy athorities assigned dominion at the same time, I see one created and collapsed and being replaced by another.
This is consecutive economy rather than concurrent economy.
When Adam was created the sullen Avenger, the dethroned former deputy authority looked on God's new work with hate, fear, jealousy, vengence. And his hosts looked on with him.
As I pointed out to you before, only on Day #2 when the firmament of the immediate heavens were formed did God withhold the pronouncement that it was good. The withholding of the pronouncement of a good firmament is the key to the presence of the serpent in the garden.
Also, I don't think the Eden, the garden of God in Ezekiel 28 is strictly only in a Heaven where no universe existed. This anointed cherub may have been a great high priest bringing to God from the creations the worship of other creatures. He orchestrated the universal worship as the topmost arch angel.
And MAYBE, just maybe, some beings were really his design. Maybe he had more of a hand in the beings that existed then we realize. But at present I cannot insist on this.
I see this being as a mediator of some sort. He was a priestly mediator of the highest and most glorious rank directing the universal praise of the Most High. That is until he became obsessed with his own beauty and sought to be like the Most High.
I am sure you do not disagree with much of this in principle. Where we differ is that I strongly think that a physical earth and physical beings participated in that past dominion. I think you see that it all took place in Heaven only and the greater part of it fermented after the tempting of Eve in Genesis 3.
I saw no evidence or scripture verse that says the bottomless pit of the abyss is the oceans or seas.
I didn't say that. I said perhaps the sea has the entrance to the abyss and that there is some relationship.
I say it is a spiritual place like paradise in the third Heaven.
Well, that I agree with. But on the other hand HOW did Korah and his company descend alive down into Sheol ?
" "Then Moses said, "This is how you will know that The Lord has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then The Lord has not sent me. But if The Lord brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you will know that these men have treated The Lord with contempt."
"As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. They went down alive into Sheol, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!" (See Numbers 16:33)
They went down into the earth alive into Hades, into Sheol. So it is not too hard for me to conceive a entrance to the abyss, a spiritual matter, being in the sea. Maybe God has some dimension boundaries like wormholes.
Or a spritual place like Hades, where the souls of the unrighteous dead stay until judgment. However, this spiritual place is a holding place for the most evil of Satan's demon angels, not for human souls.
Consider along with this Numbers 16:33.
You see RJ, you have yet to level an objection which I would consider a definite exposure of major heresy. You do have some alternative interpretations.
By the way, the nature of those bodies which a pre-adamic, pre-demons had may have been of a curious nature. We may not today be familiar with such a body that they had.
19 Jun 12
2 edits
RJ, I looked back over some posts and I think I see why you thought I said the sea was the abyss. I had written this way back:
We see no command of "Let there be an abyss ".
We see no command of "Let there be darkness".
Based on this, you were probably justified in pointing out that I made waters of the sea and abyss the same.
I will have to study this more and recall why I would write this.
I think I should have written
"We see no command of "Let there be the deep" "
It could be that recalled that "the deep" in Hebrew being the abyss.
I'll have to revisit that matter with Hebrew to English tools.
I want you to know that I do not care about "winning" an argument. I care about what is the real truth of the word of God.
Now you can explain something to me about your view, if you wish.
Are you saying that God only dealt in discipline with Satan AFTER his lie to Eve in the garden of Eden ?
Are you saying that only after that temptation to Eve that God disciplined Satan for the first time ?
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