27 May 13
I was not raised Christian but have many Christian friends. Some believe that good works alone will get you into heaven. However, some friends claim that only faith in Jesus gets you a pass. In fact, I once listened to a brief story on a Christian radio channel. Two men are at the gates of heaven. One led a life full of loving kindness and compassion for others. He was loved and respected by all he met. However, he did not believe in Jesus or God. The other died in prison. He had led a despicable life full of violence and meanness towards all he met. However, shortly before his execution, he took Jesus into his heart. He is the one who gets into the heaven. The other man is sent to Hell. I do not understand. Please explain.
27 May 13
Originally posted by Phrannyi would like to think that jesus and god, being the supreme being and all, are above petty ego trips. it would pretty petty for them to condemn someone to an eternity of pain and suffering just for not paying attention to them.
I was not raised Christian but have many Christian friends. Some believe that good works alone will get you into heaven. However, some friends claim that only faith in Jesus gets you a pass. In fact, I once listened to a brief story on a Christian radio channel. Two men are at the gates of heaven. One led a life full of loving kindness and compassion for oth ...[text shortened]... ne who gets into the heaven. The other man is sent to Hell. I do not understand. Please explain.
as such, i like to believe that works are what's important to get into a good afterlife, there is no eternal suffering, maybe simply a "time-out" where you get to think about what you did for a finite amount of time away from god's presence, and that, works being equal, believing in jesus would get you a better parking space and a cookie once in the afterlife.
27 May 13
Originally posted by PhrannyWhat is good enough? If all have sinned and fallen short than no matter
I was not raised Christian but have many Christian friends. Some believe that good works alone will get you into heaven. However, some friends claim that only faith in Jesus gets you a pass. In fact, I once listened to a brief story on a Christian radio channel. Two men are at the gates of heaven. One led a life full of loving kindness and compassion for oth ...[text shortened]... ne who gets into the heaven. The other man is sent to Hell. I do not understand. Please explain.
where you are on the "I'm good scale look at what I did" it will not be
enough. God through Jesus made a way for everyone to be saved, everyone
no matter how good we think they are or bad. So God accepts all though
Jesus Christ, outside of Jesus Christ you are going to stand before God in
your own righteousness which as we have already said will fall short.
If your complaint about this is that one among us is more righteous
compared to another of us, by comparing ourselves to ourselves we may
find one better than another, but so what we have all fallen short. What
does it matter since the best of us is not good enough, s/he may be better
than the next guy but the next guy isn't the standard. So all claims about
this one is better than that one is meaningless.
Kelly
27 May 13
Originally posted by ZahlanziMy very fundamentalist friends said they were told by their minister that good works alone will not suffice.
i would like to think that jesus and god, being the supreme being and all, are above petty ego trips. it would pretty petty for them to condemn someone to an eternity of pain and suffering just for not paying attention to them.
as such, i like to believe that works are what's important to get into a good afterlife, there is no eternal suffering, maybe s ...[text shortened]... believing in jesus would get you a better parking space and a cookie once in the afterlife.
27 May 13
Originally posted by KellyJayYou still have not really answered by question. Are you denied access to hevan if you do not believe in Jesus regardless of the life led?
What is good enough? If all have sinned and fallen short than no matter
where you are on the "I'm good scale look at what I did" it will not be
enough. God through Jesus made a way for everyone to be saved, everyone
no matter how good we think they are or bad. So God accepts all though
Jesus Christ, outside of Jesus Christ you are going to stand before ...[text shortened]... t the standard. So all claims about
this one is better than that one is meaningless.
Kelly
27 May 13
1 edit
Originally posted by PhrannyThere are only two beliefs in the world. There are those who believe they can save themselves (atheist are included in this one) and those who believe they need a Savior. Only Christianity offers a Savior. And only the Christian gospel guarantees every believer a place in the Father's house. Because salvation is of the Lord, plus nothing!
I was not raised Christian but have many Christian friends. Some believe that good works alone will get you into heaven. However, some friends claim that only faith in Jesus gets you a pass. In fact, I once listened to a brief story on a Christian radio channel. Two men are at the gates of heaven. One led a life full of loving kindness and compassion for oth ...[text shortened]... ne who gets into the heaven. The other man is sent to Hell. I do not understand. Please explain.
- Joined
- 29 Dec 08
- Moves
- 6788
Originally posted by PhrannyDo you really expect an unequivocal answer to this question?
You still have not really answered by question. Are you denied access to hevan if you do not believe in Jesus regardless of the life led?
Does any person here who considers themselves to be a Christian have an issue with the following?
The website
http://carm.org
has been recommended to me.
It says:
First of all, justification is the legal declaration by God upon the sinner, where God declares the sinner to be righteous. This declaration is based completely and totally on the work of Christ on the Cross. A person is justified by faith (Rom. 5:1); that is, he is made right before God by his faith in Christ (excluding the cults that teach a false Jesus). We are not saved by our works or our works added to the sacrifice of Christ. Our works, our good deeds, have absolutely no affect upon our salvation. Our good works do not get us salvation, nor do they help us keep our salvation. This is because our good works are filthy rags before God (Is. 64:6). Besides, if we could be saved by works, then righteousness would have been based on the law and Christ would not have needed to die. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." But, Christ did need to die which proves our works cannot save us.
However this does not mean that we are not to have good works. The Bible clearly tells us that if we claim to be Christian and we do not have good works, then we are not saved (1 John 2:4). Furthermore, the Bible also says that once we are saved, we are not free to be bad (Rom. 6:1-2). On the contrary, we are obligated to be good. In John 14:15 Jesus says, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Also, 1 John 2:3 says, "And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments."
http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-relationship-between-faith-and-works
27 May 13
Originally posted by KellyJayRomans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God..." (KJV)
What is good enough? If all have sinned and fallen short than no matter
where you are on the "I'm good scale look at what I did" it will not be
enough. God through Jesus made a way for everyone to be saved, everyone
no matter how good we think they are or bad. So God accepts all though
Jesus Christ, outside of Jesus Christ you are going to stand b ...[text shortened]... isn't the standard. So all claims about
this one is better than that one is meaningless.
Kelly
http://www.godvine.com/bible/romans/3-23
Thanks, Kelly, for presenting these indisputable and relevant facts. (gb)
27 May 13
Originally posted by PhrannyThere will be mostly sinners in heaven, saved by the grace of god through JC
I was not raised Christian but have many Christian friends. Some believe that good works alone will get you into heaven. However, some friends claim that only faith in Jesus gets you a pass. In fact, I once listened to a brief story on a Christian radio channel. Two men are at the gates of heaven. One led a life full of loving kindness and compassion for oth ...[text shortened]... ne who gets into the heaven. The other man is sent to Hell. I do not understand. Please explain.
and yes god makes the rules like it or lump it.
27 May 13
Originally posted by JS357Having not been to this site, based on what you wrote here, this is a good-as-any summation. I have no problem with it, it meshes with what I believe as a Christian.
Do you really expect an unequivocal answer to this question?
Does any person here who considers themselves to be a Christian have an issue with the following?
The website
http://carm.org
has been recommended to me.
It says:
First of all, justification is the legal declaration by God upon the sinner, where God declares the sinner to be righte ...[text shortened]... ts."
http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-relationship-between-faith-and-works
27 May 13
Originally posted by PhrannyI would like to add that it is ironic that you say raised a Christian. I would say no one is raised Christian because you have to become one by a personal choice.
I was not raised Christian but have many Christian friends. Some believe that good works alone will get you into heaven. However, some friends claim that only faith in Jesus gets you a pass. In fact, I once listened to a brief story on a Christian radio channel. Two men are at the gates of heaven. One led a life full of loving kindness and compassion for oth ...[text shortened]... ne who gets into the heaven. The other man is sent to Hell. I do not understand. Please explain.
28 May 13
Originally posted by PhrannyIf you have sin in your life you'll be denied a relationship with God after this
You still have not really answered by question. Are you denied access to hevan if you do not believe in Jesus regardless of the life led?
life. You either are in Jesus Christ or your not, to not be in Christ leaves you
out on your own before a Holy God. If you think because some sinner who
got saved by Jesus was not as bad as you will make you stand in better with
God, why would you think that? It isn't our righteousness before God but
through Jesus Christ's righteousness in His death and raising from the dead
for us gives us His grace and mercy. If you are claiming you've lived a
perfect life without falling short and God must give you entrance, what
pride you have.
Kelly
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 116950
28 May 13
Originally posted by PhrannyHi Phranny, I know you are not asking me but I would like to reply with my view of this very pertinent question.
You still have not really answered by question. Are you denied access to hevan if you do not believe in Jesus regardless of the life led?
All the prophets in the OT were clearly "saved" (to use a common term) and yet had never heard of Jesus as he hadn't been born; right up to an including John the baptiser. So it cannot be stated that it is impossible to enter the afterlife unless you believe in Jesus.
The nature of God's salvation has always been one of repentance through realisation/revelation of ones sinful nature and obedience through faith and repentance. "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness". The significance of this statement should not be understated.
Are we to assume that every single individual on earth will have heard the message of the good news of Jesus Christ? And if they did hear, at what point shall we decide that the level of hearing was sufficient to be classed "you've had your chance now"? Certainly not. Look at James 4:17 "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." For me this is an important scripture which considers the knowledge of what is the right thing to do; note it does not say 'good thing' or 'evil thing' but the right thing. The scripture also says that failing to do this right thing is that individuals sin, not general or fora group, but specific to him.
The book of James is a letter about the demonstration of faith through deeds and yet it is clearly called out elsewhere in scripture that it "without faith it is impossible to please God" and that "works without faith are dead". So what is James saying? James is saying that those who act in obedience to a good conscience (a consciousnesses alert to prompting from the spirit of God) can escape the opportunity to act sinfully in a particular instance. The spirit of God is able to speak to all individuals and all have the opportunity to listen.
Christ however offers a new hope and a new covenant whereby we no longer under law not reliant to live a hand to mouth existence of justification before God through works. Every single person who reads this forum will have had contact of some sort with the spirit of the living God either as a wider calling or as in a finger poking at their mind in a particular instance. Doing the "right" thing all the time is difficult when our consciences are flawed.
Deathbed conversions are controversial by their nature, and your example implies it is advantageous to lead a wicked life and leap through at the last moment by the skin of your teeth. "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." Galatians 6:7.
The original sin was unbelief, deliberate willful unbelief. Right at the beginning God has said "My spirit will not contend with man forever". So, God does contend with our spirits of unbelief, provoking us to the the "right thing" but in Christ we have a new covenant that goes beyond obedience and works and into rest and peace and security in him.
Yes theoretically both men could enter, but one will have absolute surety and hope in Christ, the other in something else.
28 May 13
Originally posted by Phrannyour very fundamentalist "friends" here on the forums claim the world has been made in 6 days, the earth is but a few thousands years old, evolution hasn't happen, a global flood did, and people used to live to be 900 years old.
My very fundamentalist friends said they were told by their minister that good works alone will not suffice.
even ignoring the above, i recommend to all to think for themselves. what do you think is reasonable? an eternity of suffering for a righteous atheist but an eternity of bliss and happiness for the serial rapist - murder of small children who repents just before the chair? hitler was a christian, do you think he could have received a "get into heaven free card" just by saying "i am sorry"? do you think it is reasonable that the supreme being, a being beyond our petty notions of revenge and ego would condemn a good man to eternal suffering just because he was born in an african tribe? do you think a loving god would condemn anyone at all to eternal suffering?
28 May 13
Originally posted by ZahlanziI think God has done us all a favor, making away for everyone to be saved
our very fundamentalist "friends" here on the forums claim the world has been made in 6 days, the earth is but a few thousands years old, evolution hasn't happen, a global flood did, and people used to live to be 900 years old.
even ignoring the above, i recommend to all to think for themselves. what do you think is reasonable? an eternity of sufferin ...[text shortened]... frican tribe? do you think a loving god would condemn anyone at all to eternal suffering?
no matter how far into evil we have gone. The thing you seem to have an
issue with is that some of us you want to call righteous, because they are
not as bad as some of the worst of us. You don't believe our best is not
good enough and worthy of a devil's hell! Jesus said it best only God is good
so to claim a man is good and should not be cast into hell rejects the notion
that God has condemned us all due to the sin in all of our lives.
Kelly