Altruism ~ Nature or Nurture?

Originally posted by FMF
If, for you, it "usually occurs instinctively", does that mean you mostly put it down to 'nature'?

No, not at all. It is almost certainly 'nurture' (the way a person is brought up, the morals and behaviours that are instilled in a person by their parents etc).

Originally posted by twhitehead
The way the human brain works is complicated and often involves what are called 'rewards' for certain behaviours. That these 'rewards' exists as part of behaviour does not make all behaviour automatically selfish as you appear to be suggesting. Altruism as exhibited because you do so by instinct or because it make you feel good is still altruism. Altruism ...[text shortened]... ism must be unmotivated, not even motivated by a desire to help others. Why define it like that?

Actually I initially said I don't think altruism exists.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Altruism exists and is a beautiful thing. People have lost their lives through altruistic acts which gave no personal benefit. (For me, pure altruism usually occurs instinctively, like when an old lady falls over and you rush across to get her back on her feet).

I don't agree; if that person failed to rush across the road and help the old lady their superego (for want of a more accurate, less Freudian, adjective) would punish them with guilt. Therefore the reason they do it is out of a combination of caring for the old lady and fear of guilt. Therefore not pure altruism.

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't agree; if that person failed to rush across the road and help the old lady their superego (for want of a more accurate, less Freudian, adjective) would punish them with guilt. Therefore the reason they do it is out of a combination of caring for the old lady and fear of guilt. Therefore not pure altruism.

Altruism ~ a complex manifestation of vanity?

Originally posted by divegeester
Actually I initially said I don't think altruism exists.

I know. That doesn't answer the question.
Why define it out of existence?

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't agree; if that person failed to rush across the road and help the old lady their superego (for want of a more accurate, less Freudian, adjective) would punish them with guilt. Therefore the reason they do it is out of a combination of caring for the old lady and fear of guilt. Therefore not pure altruism.

I don't buy that.

Instinctive actions, like rushing to give aid to a fallen pensioner, is not fuelled by guilt of non-action. The impulsive response to give altruistic aid comes from upbringing and established character. In that split second it is not something you even think about. The 'altruistic reflex' kicks in and you immediately offer assistance. (For those individuals who pause to see who is watching etc, then the act would still be altruistic, but at the lower end of the altruistic spectrum).

Originally posted by FMF
Altruism ~ a complex manifestation of vanity?

I think you have now switched to describing egotism, not altruism.

Perhaps only an egotist could muddle the two?

😛

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I think you have now switched to describing egotism, not altruism.

Perhaps only an egotist could muddle the two?

😛

Well, asking "Altruism ~ a complex manifestation of vanity?" was me trying to elicit a succinct 4-5 word summing up of what divegeester was trying to put across. I was probing him - perhaps in the way egotists do? He has the option of rejecting my sounbite-ification.

Originally posted by FMF
Well, asking "Altruism ~ a complex manifestation of vanity?" was me trying to elicit a succinct 4-5 word summing up of what divegeester was trying to put across. I was probing him - perhaps in the way egotists do? He has the option of rejecting my sounbite-ification.

Fine. I will now cunningly remove your question mark and make your comment a statement of fact:

"Altruism ~ a complex manifestation of vanity."

Originally posted by twhitehead
I know. That doesn't answer the question.
Why define it out of existence?

What do you mean why?
I don't believe it exists (at least not in the common definition) and gave my reasons why. What am I missing?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I don't buy that.

Instinctive actions, like rushing to give aid to a fallen pensioner, is not fuelled by guilt of non-action. The impulsive response to give altruistic aid comes from upbringing and established character. In that split second it is not something you even think about. The 'altruistic reflex' kicks in and you immediately offer assist ...[text shortened]... g etc, then the act would still be altruistic, but at the lower end of the altruistic spectrum).

Body guards are trained to "instinctively" jump in front of their mark and take a bullet; would you classify that instinctive act as altruism?

Originally posted by divegeester
What do you mean why?
I don't believe it exists (at least not in the common definition) and gave my reasons why. What am I missing?

I don't believe you took the common definition. I believe you created your own version of the definition in order to define it out of existence.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't believe you took the common definition. I believe you created your own version of the definition in order to define it out of existence.

I claim that it doesn't exist and gave my reasons why I think that.

Originally posted by divegeester
I claim that it doesn't exist and gave my reasons why I think that.

You claim that your manipulated version doesn't exist. Actual altruism as most people would understand it, clearly does exist, hence the word.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You claim that your manipulated version doesn't exist. Actual altruism as most people would understand it, clearly does exist, hence the word.

You seem making an arumentum ad populum.