agnostic vs. atheist

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe He knows all that can be known.
Kelly

So can he know the future, including our choices? The Bible seems to indicate so. For example, Jesus told Peter that Peter would betray him three times.

Originally posted by telerion
[b]This is second part of the condition I wrote for KJ. You are doing exactly the same thing. Free will + no sin is possible when it's convenient to you, but impossible when it is not.


The point is that God knew of a world where humans had free will and enough awareness or in your own words sufficiently little "confusion" so that they never choose to si ...[text shortened]... he chose this one. Therefore he must prefer this world to a world with free will and no sinners.

But it appears that he has or will make both. We have a world with sin and without sin. However, would we have the world without sin minus the previous world with sin as an etermal living memorial as to the bitter consequences of sin?

Originally posted by whodey
But it appears that he has or will make both. We have a world with sin and without sin. However, would we have the world without sin minus the previous world with sin as an etermal living memorial as to the bitter consequences of sin?

Huh? Let's see if it makes sense mathematically, since I can't understand your English.

World - (World + Sin) = Memorial
- Sin = Memorial
Sin = - Memorial

So the "etermal living memorial as to the bitter consequences of sin" is negative sin.

No, that doesn't make sense either.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Huh? Let's see if it makes sense mathematically, since I can't understand your English.

World - (World + Sin) = Memorial
- Sin = Memorial
Sin = - Memorial

So the "etermal living memorial as to the bitter consequences of sin" is negative sin.

No, that doesn't make sense either.

Huh? Lets use English instead of math because I have no idea what equation you have just created.

1. God created the heavens and the earth that we are currently living in. It was a world free from sin before the fall of Adam/Lucifer.
2. Sin entered into the world once Lucifer fell and then later mankind fell because both had free will to do so.
3. Despite the fall, man was shown mercy/grace and still had the option of choosing to change coarse and walk by faith, thus, man still has free will to choose sin/faith despite having already sinned.
4. God comes up with a plan to remove sin from creation because sin is destructive and causes pain. However, this is all done while preserving the free will of creation.
5. God then does away with this world in which sin has entered and creates another world just like the first sinless world that existed before the fall of Adam.
6. The only difference between world 1 and world 2 is that the some of the people from world 1 now live in world 2. Also, world 2 has the added bonus of having world 1 as a point of reference in terms of the destructive nature of sin. Thus a memorial of sorts has been made of world 1. Now when contemplating "sinning" in world 2, mankind can reflect from personal experience what sin is all about before choosing to sin once again rather than simply hearing someone tell them what it is all about. You might say it is a learning tool. For example, I find that I learn better from experience rather than sitting in a class room and hearing someone tell me what should or should not happen. You might even compare both worlds to taking a coarse in chemistry. You have a lecture portion and a lab portion. In the lecture portion you will be told what chemical reactions should take place and the consequences thereof. You then enter a lab and find out first hand that these chemical reactions do, in fact, occur as well as the consequences thereof. Without the lab, you would simply be taking someones word for how chemical reactions occur and the consequences thereof which may cause one to take pause and wonder to what degree what they were taught was true and accurate.

Originally posted by whodey
Huh? Lets use English instead of math because I have no idea what equation you have just created.

1. God created the heavens and the earth that we are currently living in. It was a world free from sin before the fall of Adam/Lucifer.
2. Sin entered into the world once Lucifer fell and then later mankind fell because both had free will to do so.
3. De cause one to take pause and wonder to what degree what they were taught was true and accurate.

However, would we have the world without sin minus the previous world with sin as an etermal living memorial as to the bitter consequences of sin?

So...where's the "living world" in your explanation? Does this world eat and breathe?

How does one subtract a "world with sin" from a "world without sin"? You brought in the math terminology (minus) which is why I went to math.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
However, would we have the world without sin minus the previous world with sin as an etermal living memorial as to the bitter consequences of sin?

So...where's the "living world" in your explanation? Does this world eat and breathe?

How does one subtract a "world with sin" from a "world without sin"? You brought in the math terminology (minus) which is why I went to math.

When we die and are resurrected, the Bible indicates that a new heaven and a new earth will be made for us to live in as the old world will then pass away because it has been corrupted by sin. In this new world we will then be given new bodies uncorrupted by sin. Thus we will start over in our own garden of Eden, so to speak.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
However, would we have the world without sin minus the previous world with sin as an etermal living memorial as to the bitter consequences of sin?

So...where's the "living world" in your explanation? Does this world eat and breathe?

How does one subtract a "world with sin" from a "world without sin"? You brought in the math terminology (minus) which is why I went to math.

Is 65
"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

Was pondering your point and ran across this, makes me rethink
some of my views.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Is 65
"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

Was pondering your point and ran across this, makes me rethink
some of my views.
Kelly

Wow. Good find, KJ. I thought I remembered something like this but couldn't find the verse.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Is 65
"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

Was pondering your point and ran across this, makes me rethink
some of my views.
Kelly

In addition we have Revelation 21:4

"And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither will there be any more pain for the former things are passed away."

This verse indicates that even though the old things will have passed away that we will have some recollection of this present world because our tears will be wiped away. Perhaps at some point it will all be forgotten, who knows?

Originally posted by whodey
In addition we have Revelation 21:4

"And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither will there be any more pain for the former things are passed away."

This verse indicates that even though the old things will have passed away that we will have some recollection of this present world ...[text shortened]... ause our tears will be wiped away. Perhaps at some point it will all be forgotten, who knows?

I think "wipe all tears from their eyes" does not necessarily have to mean that they still remember. It may just be re-enforcing the idea that all pain and suffering will be gone.

Still if at any point the past is forgotten, then a perfect world no longer requires the memory of a fallen one; and then we are back at square one again: Why not create the perfect one to begin with?

Originally posted by telerion
I think "wipe all tears from their eyes" does not necessarily have to mean that they still remember. It may just be re-enforcing the idea that all pain and suffering will be gone.

Still if at any point the past is forgotten, then a perfect world no longer requires the memory of a fallen one; and then we are back at square one again: Why not create the perfect one to begin with?

OK, just for the sake of arguement lets say that all is forgotten and there is no memorial of the first world. What was accomplished in the first world to prevent sin in the second? Perhaps the first world was a place to "weed out" those who might have fallen in the second world. In effect, perhaps God weeds out those who love him and his ways and those who do not. If we decide to walk by faith in God under the conditions we have now because we love him and his ways, it seems to reason that we will do so under the conditions made in the second world.

The conditions of the first world I speak of are that we are hindered by a sin nature as well as the added disadvantage of having to have faith in the unseen.

Originally posted by whodey
OK, just for the sake of arguement lets say that all is forgotten and there is no memorial of the first world. What was accomplished in the first world to prevent sin in the second? Perhaps the first world was a place to "weed out" those who might have fallen in the second world. In effect, perhaps God weeds out those who love him and his ways and those wh ...[text shortened]... dered by a sin nature as well as the added disadvantage of having to have faith in the unseen.

If God wants to weed them out, then he should not create a world where people that choose against him exist. After all, he knows ahead of time what we will choose. Then there is no painful earthly world and no eternal torment, only people who choose to love him freely living in bliss and perfect communion.

I can see no rule that should constrain your god to design this painful filter. Any such rule would actually just be another of your god's choices, which he could freely have declined.

Originally posted by telerion
If God wants to weed them out, then he should not create a world where people that choose against him exist. After all, he knows ahead of time what we will choose. Then there is no painful earthly world and no eternal torment, only people who choose to love him freely living in bliss and perfect communion.

I can see no rule that should constrain your ...[text shortened]... rule would actually just be another of your god's choices, which he could freely have declined.

To create beings that you know will never sin is, in fact, manipulation.
Would free will exist in such a scenrio? I think not.

Originally posted by whodey
To create beings that you know will never sin is, in fact, manipulation.
Would free will exist in such a scenrio? I think not.

Why not? Your free will cannot depend upon some one else sinning. If so, then God could not have free will.

And there is nothing manipulative about it at all. In fact, it's the only sane thing to do. I think this is another example of a Christian trying to have it both ways.

There is a famous argument against free will which goes something like this:

1) To have free will, looking at a moment when an agent chose an action, A, it must have been the case that the agent could have chosen B (B ~= A)

2) God knows what each agent will choose in every moment.
3) God is always right.
4) 2 and 3 imply that an agent can only choose the action that God knows for the agent in that moment.

Therefore (1) is false; agents do not have free will.

Now every Christian that I've watched counter this argument insists that God's omniscience does not invalidate free will. God may know what we will do, but we still choose to do it.

But now in this thread you are saying the opposite, namely that it is not free will if God knows what we will do.

So which is it? Does his perfect foresight negate our free will or not?

I think you might try to counter that the difference is that in my example God chooses not to create certain people (i.e. those who will end up suffering eternally). But let me remind you that God has already chosen who will exist and who will not. He created the world where you exist, knowing that you would choose him. Does this negate your free will? Certainly not! He created me, knowing that I would reject him. Does that negate my free will? No.

Originally posted by whodey
To create beings that you know will never sin is, in fact, manipulation.
Would free will exist in such a scenrio? I think not.

So is weeding out people who don't make the choices you want them to make.