29 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadHe (KellyJay) doesn't want to answer because he infact hasn't a clue. And he doesn't want to admit that he lacks every knowledge about the matter. The bible says nothing about it, so he have to make up things for himself. He fails.
In other words you are making the claim that the current state of the universe is 'special' and all other states that might have happened are not special.
But do you have a good reason for that claim, or is it merely an illusion caused by the fact that we happen (by chance) to be in the current state.
One obvious problem with your argument is amannion se? Why don't a million to one odds give you pause? They are pretty long odds are they not?
29 Nov 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydSo the effects of the state of mankind affects the entire universe. Now THERE's a thought. Just think, Andromeda galaxy is now unfit for life because mankind fell from grace. Poor Andromedans, I bet they would be pissed if they found out who messed up their planets.
Most pastors of one particular denomination I've heard a lot indicate that the universe is not such a "spiffy place". It was when God first created it, but man and his fall from grace messed it all up, and now it is a corrupt sinhole.
29 Nov 08
Originally posted by josephwSo now there are about one trillion souls in heaven or hell, take your pick. So how many souls will there be at the end of the existence of mankind?
[b]Why do you require eternal life for the life you have to mean something?
Life has meaning because it is life! I say life has little meaning if it were only for a little while. Life has so much more meaning because it is eternal. Why consign existence to such a short span? Is living forever so hard to except? Can you not see yourself in eternity eve ...[text shortened]... eternal life from the one that gives life. No doubts. Just certainty. Eternal security. Life![/b]
Wouldn't it get a bit crowded in heaven, or do they open up new territory when the population gets too great? Maybe that's what dark matter is, souls who died and now live on forever, holding galaxies together. If so, what happens to them if the universe is destined to crash together in a big crunch?
01 Dec 08
Originally posted by ale1552I think I'd normally be on your side in a discussion like this, but your
I have just one question for those of you who do not believe in a Creator or a life after death.....does your unbelief make you better people? Let me ask another question. Does your unbelief make you happier?
not asking a good question. How would they be able to compare their
beliefs to one that has faith, if all they ever knew was a life of
without it?
Kelly
01 Dec 08
Originally posted by ale1552My view is that belief (or lack of it) has nothing to do with whether I'm a good person or a happy person.
I have just one question for those of you who do not believe in a Creator or a life after death.....does your unbelief make you better people? Let me ask another question. Does your unbelief make you happier?
Now obviously, there are believers out there whose happiness rests in that belief - my Mother is one of those. I know that at least a part of the happiness in her life rests with her religious faith.
But, on the other hand, I'm pretty happy and yet I have no faith - or at least no faith in supernatural creators.
As to your first question, does my lack of belief make me a better person? Well, I don't really think that the mess inside my head is what makes me good or bad - it's my actions that determine whether I'm a good person, and those I'll have to leave to others to judge. But I think I do alright.
Certainly I wouldn't judge a person for their 'goodness' or 'badness' based on their religious faith or lack thereof.
01 Dec 08
Originally posted by KellyJayYou'll probably find that many atheists were once believers to one degree or another. Certainly I'm in that boat - although my belief was really based on not much more than habit.
I think I'd normally be on your side in a discussion like this, but your
not asking a good question. How would they be able to compare their
beliefs to one that has faith, if all they ever knew was a life of
without it?
Kelly
My Mum took me to church and so I would've said, I believed. It was only really when I began to think about such things - and this occurred for me in my late teens - that I started to actually seriously question the nature of my belief .. and find it wanting.
But, to get back to your point, I think I have at least some basis to make a comparison between belief and not belief.
01 Dec 08
Originally posted by KellyJayThey seemed to understand exactly what I meant, and gave very good answers. I can only say for myself that I would not be living as moral a life or as happy a life if I did not have faith.
I think I'd normally be on your side in a discussion like this, but your
not asking a good question. How would they be able to compare their
beliefs to one that has faith, if all they ever knew was a life of
without it?
Kelly
01 Dec 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ale1552.does your unbelief make you better people?
I have just one question for those of you who do not believe in a Creator or a life after death.....does your unbelief make you better people? Let me ask another question. Does your unbelief make you happier?
No. Just like your belief doesn't necessarily make you a better person.
Does your unbelief make you happier?
No, but it doesn't make me sadder either.
I used to believe in god and I'm much happier now, but that has much more to do with other factors than my belief or unbelief in god.
01 Dec 08
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Originally posted by amannionDo you recall what Jesus said about those that claimed they knew
You'll probably find that many atheists were once believers to one degree or another. Certainly I'm in that boat - although my belief was really based on not much more than habit.
My Mum took me to church and so I would've said, I believed. It was only really when I began to think about such things - and this occurred for me in my late teens - that I start ...[text shortened]... point, I think I have at least some basis to make a comparison between belief and not belief.
him and walked away, or denied him in how they lived their lives?
I don't know what you had, but I doubt it was a real relationship with
God in Christ. I have no doubt you belonged to something, but if
you had a relationship with Jesus Christ, I mean you really knew Him,
you would not have walked away and still deny Him. Not sure what you
walked away from, but I doubt it was Jesus Christ.
Kelly
01 Dec 08
Originally posted by ale1552I know what you mean, I didn't get saved until I was 25 that was over
They seemed to understand exactly what I meant, and gave very good answers. I can only say for myself that I would not be living as moral a life or as happy a life if I did not have faith.
27 years ago. I know the difference between the two, and before I got
saved, and after is a different life all together, it is not a head
knowledge that they can grasp by just reading about it, or hearing
about it, God has to be experienced in a relationship, other than that
they are like Job, they heard but they didn't know.
Kelly
01 Dec 08
Originally posted by KellyJayI'm not sure if you fully read what I wrote - or perhaps I didn't make it clear. You are right - my relationship with god or Jesus was that of an adolescent and clearly not the same as yours or other religious people.
Do you recall what Jesus said about those that claimed they knew
him and walked away, or denied him in how they lived their lives?
I don't know what you had, but I doubt it was a real relationship with
God in Christ. I have no doubt you belonged to something, but if
you had a relationship with Jesus Christ, I mean you really knew Him,
you would not hav ...[text shortened]... nd still deny Him. Not sure what you
walked away from, but I doubt it was Jesus Christ.
Kelly
My point was simply that I had some sort of relationship and was able to make at least a simplistic comparison between a time when I believed and a time when I didn't.
I might also add that as a reasonably intelligent human I am capable of imagination and empathy - so that while I do not share your faith, I am capable of imagining what it must be like, and respecting the views that you have.
I hope you can do the same for me.
02 Dec 08
Originally posted by amannionOkay, I'm not trying to be mean to you, but make a point.
I'm not sure if you fully read what I wrote - or perhaps I didn't make it clear. You are right - my relationship with god or Jesus was that of an adolescent and clearly not the same as yours or other religious people.
My point was simply that I had some sort of relationship and was able to make at least a simplistic comparison between a time when I believe ...[text shortened]... it must be like, and respecting the views that you have.
I hope you can do the same for me.
You called yourself an atheist, and you said you walked away from the
Christian faith. My point to you is what you walked away from was not
Jesus Christ, had it been Jesus Christ you could not call yourself an
Atheist, because you would know Jesus and God are real. Saying you
do not believe they are means, what you walked away from was some
thing man made, some group think that you were apart of, not that
some of your old fellowship were not real and still are, but you were
not back then.
I will not judge anyone's walk with God as less than mine, I do not
believe God does so why should I? God loves each of us, He has no
favorites period, if Peter and Paul were in the same room as you, you'd
be just as loved by God as they are. The only difference may be they
had a deeper relationship with God than we do, mainly, *just my
opinion*, because we find the things of this world much more to our
liking than they did during thier time.
I mean no disrespect, if this post comes off that way I'm sorry.
Kelly
02 Dec 08
Originally posted by KellyJayNo disrespect read into it, but I must say you come off sounding pretty full of yourself - or at least, your faith.
Okay, I'm not trying to be mean to you, but make a point.
You called yourself an atheist, and you said you walked away from the
Christian faith. My point to you is what you walked away from was not
Jesus Christ, had it been Jesus Christ you could not call yourself an
Atheist, because you would know Jesus and God are real. Saying you
do not believe they ...[text shortened]... uring thier time.
I mean no disrespect, if this post comes off that way I'm sorry.
Kelly
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you truly believe.
But to say that I would not be an atheist if I truly had encountered Jesus is to reject not just my decision to take an atheist stance but also to reject the possibility that there is value in any other viewpoint - Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Bahai, or whatever.
Now, I would never claim to speak for Jesus here, but I'm guessing that he was a little bit more accommodating of other faiths and beliefs. And if he wasn't, them I'm damned happy that my experience never allowed me to really 'get' Jesus.
I like my free will and I like my independence. What you talk of almost suggests a brain washing cult-like experience ... which when I think about it is probably what put me off any religion in the first place.
I understand your view - that my experience was not truly the christian one - and I agree with it. But I absolutely reject the notion that if I were to really experience Jesus's word, that I would suddenly bow down before him and forsake anything else.
I'm not a zombie ...