Originally posted by NemesioDo your own homework. The closest that any of the disciplines have come to a starting point for known matter is the Big Bang. Although to science how, when and why is speculative, anything prior to the Big Bang makes speculation look as certain as the current time.
Your silence is deafening.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHLOL!
Do your own homework. The closest that any of the disciplines have come to a starting point for known matter is the Big Bang. Although to science how, when and why is speculative, anything prior to the Big Bang makes speculation look as certain as the current time.
So, you are recanting your claim that scientists assert that matter was created at
the so-called Big Bang? Recall you said:
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
All knowledge to date reveals that all matter had a starting point. Since that starting point, the axiom has held true: matter/energy can neither be created or destroyed. It was, however, brought into existence.
While it might be the (arbitrary) starting point for the universe as we know it (that is,
scientists start 'time' there, since anything before that is speculation), that claim doesn't
entail that matter didn't exist before then; indeed, no mainstream scientist claims this.
If I am wrong, it should be a trivial matter for you to cite a scientist who makes the claim
that matter was 'brought into existence' at/before the Big Bang.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioIf I am wrong, it should be a trivial matter for you to cite a scientist who makes the claim that matter was 'brought into existence' at/before the Big Bang.
LOL!
So, you are recanting your claim that scientists assert that matter was created at
the so-called Big Bang? Recall you said:
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
All knowledge to date reveals that all matter had a starting point. Since that starting point, the axiom has held true: matter/energy can neither be created or destroyed. kes the claim
that matter was 'brought into existence' at/before the Big Bang.
Nemesio
You really are full of yourself, aren't you? Always with the sly put-downs, the condescending 'righter-than-thou.' It's just a bit much sometimes, really.
Okay, since you are obviously so lazy as to do your own research, here is one no-name, no-account group of people who hold to pretty much the same thing as I have asserted.
"During the first moments of the birth of our Cosmos (the Big Bang), all the matter of our Universe was produced by an asymmetric reaction between matter and antimatter involving the quarks and color charges of the strong force, and the leptons and Intermediate Vector Bosons (IVBs) of the weak force."
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/jag8/origin.html
Now, you do your level best at twisting their words around, or somehow wring something out of either of the sides to make them say something other than what is being said. I wouldn't expect anything less from you, and frankly, I would be sorely disappointed if you suddenly changed tactics.
For a humorous diversion:
I always liked reading science articles. Once I was reading about subatomic particles around my then teenage son. I said out loud "Boy, I wonder what is a million times smaller than the smallest quark?"
In the backround I heard my teenage son dryly respond "My allowance."
Originally posted by FreakyKBHSorry, but I have to take issue with both you and Nemesio.
[b]If I am wrong, it should be a trivial matter for you to cite a scientist who makes the claim that matter was 'brought into existence' at/before the Big Bang.
You really are full of yourself, aren't you? Always with the sly put-downs, the condescending 'righter-than-thou.' It's just a bit much sometimes, really.
Okay, since you are obviously so ...[text shortened]... from you, and frankly, I would be sorely disappointed if you suddenly changed tactics.[/b]
Time began at the big bang (that's my grumble at Nem over). My grumble at you is more serious. You stand there and talk about "before" the big bang. There was no "before". As soon as you start talking about that, you remove any credibility you had. You might as well ask about the smell of purple or the colour of time.
Originally posted by scottishinnzYour argument isn't with someone as insignificant as me, then. Whatever you wish to call that spatial reality in which "an asymmetric reaction between matter and antimatter involving the quarks and color charges of the strong force" occured is between you and those better versed in the same.
Sorry, but I have to take issue with both you and Nemesio.
Time began at the big bang (that's my grumble at Nem over). My grumble at you is more serious. You stand there and talk about "before" the big bang. There was no "before". As soon as you start talking about that, you remove [b]any credibility you had. You might as well ask about the smell of purple or the colour of time.[/b]
The experience of Christ is the reality behind the shadow of the Big Bang cosmology. This microscopic singularity which expanded to become the universe of space and time is symbolic of a deeper truth. That truth is the experience of Christ.
Christ is the singular seed implanted within the redeemed which will expand outward to fill the saved man unto the fulness of God. The experience of Christ is the reality which the Big Bang points to. In fact the pointers and indicators in nature are many.
Paul discribes Christ as the infinite dimensions of the universe. Sure he does. Right here:
"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and depth and height are and to know the knowledge surpassing love of Christ" (Ephesians 3:17,18 RcV)
You see Paul mentions only the breath and length and depth and height. These are the very dimensions of the universe.
We then ask how broad is the breadth? It is infinitely broad. How high is the height? It is infinitely high. At least we know of no known limit to the breadth and the height of the creation. How long is the length? It is virtually infinite as far as we are concerned. And the depth is infinitely deep as far as man knows.
So Paul discribes the personality of the Christ who is being wrought into the believers as infinite as the dimensions of the physical universe. This gives me the ground to say that the Big Bang which brought about the dimensions of the universe is only a shadow of a more profound reality.
What is that reality? It is God's eternal purpose. What is God's eternal purpose? God's eternal purpose is to wrought Christ into man. God's purpose is to work Christ into man so that man becomes the mingling of God and man.
IF you really want to understand the universe, I'm sorry, you have to study Jesus Christ. For it was made through Him, for Him, and unto Him.
After we master the mechanical aspects of the unverse with the limits of what science can teach us, then we have to contemplate its meaning. The endless dimesions of the Son of God as He is dispensed into man is the meaning of the Big Bang and the universe.
In future posts I will show other verses which show that the universe was created for God's eternal plan to dispense His divine life in Christ into man to constitute sons of God.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHNo. My argument IS with you. You are misrepresenting the science. The big bang was the event in which mass-energy and time-space came to exist. Perhaps you are also suggesting that space existed pre-big bang?
Your argument isn't with someone as insignificant as me, then. Whatever you wish to call that spatial reality in which "an asymmetric reaction between matter and antimatter involving the quarks and color charges of the strong force" occured is between you and those better versed in the same.
The experience of Christ brings meaning to the universe because it was made for God's purpose. And God's purpose is all wrapped up in Christ.
Right here it says so:
" ... making known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Himself. unot the economy of the fullness of the times to head up all things in Christ ..."
In the fullness of the times, at the climax of the times God intends to head up all things in Christ. This Paul says is the mystery of His will.
Scientists tell us of entropy and the returning of the universe to coldness eventually. The energy is to run out. The creation left to itself is to run down and wear out. This element of the wearing out of the creation causes the universe to be in what some of us call the Universal Heap of Collapse. The UHP effects the whole creation and causes society and the natural world to collapse into a heap.
God's eternal plan to head up this Universal Heap of Collapse under a governing Head - Christ the Son of God. This plan is taking place by process. In the fulness of the times all things are to be headed up from the Universal Heap of Collapse under the ordering and governing Christ.
Now on further with Paul's thought - "In whom ...[that is in Christ] ... also we were designated as an inheritance, having been predestinated according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of His will.
That we should be to the praise of His glory who have first hoped in Christ" (EPh. 1:11,12)
Here's Paul's thought is that the believers in Christ are the FIRST to be undergoing this universal heading up process. When Christ is implanted into the believer's heart she enters into the organic heading up under Christ. This heading up process will eventually rescue the entire universe from the Universal Heap of Collapse, the UHC. Then all things will be in good order.
Then not even a mosquito or a weed or a fly will be out of order. When you see a tornado you may sense "A cloud is not suppose to do that." That is right. Nature is out of proper order. And human society is in a heap of collapse.
In this collapse some are higher in the heap then others. But all are in the ruin of the heap of collapse regardless if they are towards the top of the heap, in the middle of the heap, or at the bottom of the heap.
The experience of Christ is not only the expansion of the life of God within humanity. But as this life grows and expands it also heads up people in good order under Christ the Head. And we are being rescued from the UHC.
So the saved are the first to have hoped in Christ. Others will follow.
Paul says also that the believers in Christ become God's inheritance. We inherit God and God inherits us. He inherits us by dispensing His life into us and expanding His life to saturate us unto the fullness of God.
Here we see Paul speaking of the growing Christ, the expanding Christ growing in His corporate Body unto the fullness of God:
"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you being rooted and grounded in love, may be full of sgtrength to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth are and to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God"
This is the implanted Christ encreasing His life and nature in a corporate group of people until they spiritually grow into the expression of God in fullness - " filled unto all the fullness of God"
The Big Bang filled the universe with time and space and matter. The experience of Christ firstly fills the redeemed mankind with the life and nature of God. The final result is not only man being headed up under Christ but man being filled unto the fullness of God. Man becomes the corporate and collective expression of the indwelling God Who has dispensed His triune being into the redeemed.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHUm. I think you simply don't understand what this says. It says that the matter of the universe
Now, you do your level best at twisting their words around, or somehow wring something out of either of the sides to make them say something other than what is being said. I wouldn't expect anything less from you, and frankly, I would be sorely disappointed if you suddenly changed tactics.
was created from the phenomenal energy of the Big Bang.
This isn't matter's being created ex nihilo which is what I presume we are talking about.
You see matter 'destroyed' whenever you light your fire in your fireplace! But it's not really
destroyed because it is merely being converted into energy.
The inverse is true, as well -- every time you eat a piece of chocolate cake, energy from the
calories, fat, sugars and so on turn into that spare tire around your waist.
All this scientist is saying is that there was a buttload of energy which suddenly went BANG and
the universe was born. A (tremendous) fixed amount of energy yielded a (tremendous) fixed
amount of matter.
This is not 'from nothing.' It's from the energy from the quarks and antimatter and all that stuff
that we both don't understand in that paper.
If you don't believe me, email the professor and ask if he thinks matter came into existence ex
nihilo.
Nemesio
Originally posted by scottishinnzTime is an arbitrary standard. The way in which we measure it is based on the rate of decay of
Time began at the big bang (that's my grumble at Nem over). My grumble at you is more serious. You stand there and talk about "before" the big bang. There was no "before". As soon as you start talking about that, you remove [b]any credibility you had. You might as well ask about the smell of purple or the colour of time.[/b]
some radioactive isotope or something at a certain temperature at a certain sea level or whatever
(I could look it up, but I'm lazy, and you probably know it offhand). Based on this arbitrary
standard, yes, we can set up T=0 at the Big Bang, and indeed it is convenient and wise to do so,
for that is our frame of reference.
However, we are running totally blind when we speculate about what existed before the Big Bang
(other than an immense amount of energy). Did another universe collapse? Was ours the first?
Who knows?!? There may be a 'before' in regards to the Big Bang, there may not. As I said
in another thread, the wise scientist ought to be agnostic on such issues, because there is no
knowledge about this, and it would seem that there can never be knowledge about this.
Now, I agree, convenience dictates that we ought to attribute T=0 at the Big Bang, but we should
be careful about positive claims that there was certainly 'no before.' We don't (and can't) have a
clue about that.
Nemesio
Originally posted by jaywillI bet this makes you feel very safe and warm and cozy.
The experience of Christ brings meaning to the universe because it was made for God's purpose. And God's purpose is all wrapped up in Christ.
Right here it says so:
" ... making known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Himself. unot the economy of the fullness of the times to head up all things in Ch on of the indwelling God Who has dispensed His triune being into the redeemed.
Originally posted by NemesioIf it makes me feel fuzzy and secure
I bet this makes you feel very safe and warm and cozy.
and cozy does that mean it is not true?
In the experince of Christ faith in the facts comes first. Feelings are secondary and come after. It is a fact that God created the universe for His will:
"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created" (Revelation 4:11)
This verse says that all things were created for God's will. This does not mean that they only exist because of His will power. It means that they were created for His will, His purpose, and His plan. Because of the will of God "they were, and were created."
So the entire universe is purposeful. It is created for the will of God. It is not by accident. It is not meaningless. We are not just a second rate planet circling a second rate star where life accidently just happened to arise because the conditions were right. The divine fact is that the universe exists for God's will.
Now, what can we ascertain about God's will? If the universe is created for God's will then what is God's will? The Bible tells us of this fact also. His will is to have many sons of God heading up under Christ the creation:
" Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love. predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himslef, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4,5)
God chose some people in Christ "before the foundation of the world" unto "sonship". Before the foundation of the world means before the creation of the universe. This implies strongly that first God had a plan to have sons of God. Then based upon this plan He laid the foundation of the world, ie. He created the creation.
Before He created the universe God had a good pleasure and a will. That was to have sons of God. Based then upon this purpose He created all things and they were.
So we see the facts. This is not the guesswork you offer us. I don't think you have a clue why there is a creation. So, yes, it makes me feel very good that someone knows. The apostles and prophets of the Bible know.
Before the foundation of the world God predestinated some humkan beings in Christ to sonship. That is to have the nature and position of a son of God sharing God's holiness and expressing God's glory.
And as I previously referenced in the fullness of the times these sons of God with His life and His nature are headed up in good order under the universal head Christ.
"Unto the economy of the fulnesss of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him." (Eph. 1:10)
The process towards God's will is moving is the heading up of all things under Christ, first starting with those predistinated to share the sonship of God with His holiness. This headship is transmitted to this corporate entity the church. Christ is made the universal head over all things "to the church":
"And He [God] subjected all things under His feet and gave Him [Christ] to be the Head over all things to the church, which is His Body, the fulness of the One who fills all in all." (Eph. 1:22,23)
Therefore the headship of Christ over all things is transmitted to the church. He is head over all "to the church" which is His Body.
So as for cozy feelings, I do feel good that I do not have to be led around by the tappings of the blind who have no foggy clue why the creation is here and why we are here.
But the facts come first. The feelings come afterwards.
Originally posted by scottishinnzThere is no representation at all. The author is asserting that the matter of this universe is a result (produced by means of) the matter from (presumably) another universe and/or space/time conversions. Here is another paper on the related subject.
No. My argument IS with you. You are misrepresenting the science. The big bang was the event in which mass-energy and time-space came to exist. Perhaps you are also suggesting that space existed pre-big bang?
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/jag8/conversion.html