03 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne=============================
C'mon Jaywill, Paul taught what he taught.
And Jesus taught what He taught.
And they are very different animals.
And if everyone is brave enough to post their view on salvation as I did, we'll likely see the flavor I mentioned.
But it seems doubtful anyone will. They are afraid to put it out in the light of truth.[/b]
C'mon Jaywill, Paul taught what he taught.
And Jesus taught what He taught.
And they are very different animals.
============================
You have been asked by Epi to provide your examples. He closed the discussion because you submitted none.
Shall we take this quotation from Romans 10:9 as one of your contradictions of Paul against the teachings of Jesus ?
Yes ?? Is this your "contradiction" from Paul against Jesus ?
03 Feb 10
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillThe thing you don't want to face is that fact that, so far as I can tell, you all believe in some flavor of cheap salvation and that belief has roots in the teachings of Paul. As such you believe that Paul taught whatever flavor of cheap salvation that you believe in.
[b]=============================
C'mon Jaywill, Paul taught what he taught.
And Jesus taught what He taught.
And they are very different animals.
============================
You have been asked by Epi to provide your examples. He closed the discussion because you submitted none.
Shall we take this quotation from Romans 10:9 as one ...[text shortened]... the teachings of Jesus ?
Yes ?? Is this your "contradiction" from Paul against Jesus ?[/b]
Why are you afraid to put it out in the light of truth, jaywill?
Another flavor will have its roots in this:
Romans 3
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne======================================
The thing you don't want to face is that fact that, so far as I can tell, you all believe in some flavor of cheap salvation and that belief has roots in the teachings of Paul. As such you believe that Paul taught whatever flavor of cheap salvation that you believe in.
Why are you afraid to put it out in the light of truth, jaywill?
The thing you don't want to face is that fact that, so far as I can tell, you all believe in some flavor of cheap salvation and that belief has roots in the teachings of Paul. As such you believe that Paul taught whatever flavor of cheap salvation that you believe in.
Why are you afraid to put it out in the light of truth, jaywill?
===================================
Was that a YES Romans 10:9 is Paul contradicting Jesus ?
Was that a NO Romans 10:9 is not in contradiction to the teaching of Jesus ?
We're talking about bravery and commitment here ??
Commit one way or another please on your submission of Romans 10:9.
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneLol...This stuff is so bizarre. I love it...
The thing you don't want to face is that fact that, so far as I can tell, you all believe in some flavor of cheap salvation and that belief has roots in the teachings of Paul. As such you believe that Paul taught whatever flavor of cheap salvation that you believe in.
Why are you afraid to put it out in the light of truth, jaywill?
Another flavor w ...[text shortened]... mans 3
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
03 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]I don't see much point in getting into the morass of ambiguity that are Paul's teachings when Paulians can't come remotely close to deciding amongst themselves. However, I've seen nothing but flavors of cheap salvation thus far from Paulians and don't expect to see anything but. The best we can do is look at these various flavors of Paulian salvation and compare them to the teachings of Jesus.
[b]======================================
The thing you don't want to face is that fact that, so far as I can tell, you all believe in some flavor of cheap salvation and that belief has roots in the teachings of Paul. As such you believe that Paul taught whatever flavor of cheap salvation that you believe in.
Why are you afraid to put it out in the nd commitment here ??
Commit one way or another please on your submission of Romans 10:9.
I've committed. I've posted what I believe is the absolute minimum requirement for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". I've also stated that anything that falls short of this is cheap salvation. I've also stated that my position is rooted in the teachings of Jesus.
It's all out there in the light of truth waiting to be compared to all flavors of Paulian salvation.
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneEpi was right. The thread is virtually closed.
I don't see much point in getting into the morass of ambiguity that are Paul's teachings when Paulians can't come remotely close to deciding amongst themselves. However, I've seen nothing but flavors of cheap salvation thus far from Paulians and don't expect to see anything but. The best we can do is look at these various flavors of Paulian salvation ...[text shortened]... n the light of truth waiting to be compared to all flavors of Paulian salvation.[/b]
Can I have my penny back ?
03 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI'm not surprised that no one is interested in getting down to brass tacks on this issue.
Epi was right. The thread is virtually closed.
Can I have my penny back ?
They love the feeling they get from believing they have salvation but are afraid to look too close at it.
The truth will make you free.
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThey love the feeling they get from believing they have salvation but are afraid to look too close at it.
I'm not surprised that no one is interested in getting down to brass tacks on this issue.
They love the feeling they get from believing they have salvation but are afraid to look too close at it.
The truth will make you free.
-----------ToOne----------------
Or maybe you just love the feeling YOU get from projecting all your vivid imaginings on to people you have never met?
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by Bosse de NageCome on, ThinkOfOne, it's a fair question. Nor does not being able to answer it, if you can't, negate the value of your question
That's the way it seems from here.
Come on, ThinkOfOne, it's a fair question. Nor does not being able to answer it, if you can't, negate the value of your question -- although a new thread would be appropriate for that.
----------bosse----------------
That's the bit he can't grasp. It's as if any small vulnerability in his position is to be avoided at all costs.
He shuns uncertainty like it's a leper about to infect him. Everything has to be rigid and watertight.
04 Feb 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIt doesn't get much cheaper than this.
If it isn't clear, I don't find Paul's teachings coherent. Because of this lack of coherence it can and has been interpreted in a myriad of ways which helps explain the myriad views on salvation. As such, there seems to be no point in trying to present a definitive position on Paul's teachings. However, from what I can tell, epi, freaky, et al. do believe ...[text shortened]... od raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
It doesn't get much cheaper than this.
Or this, for that matter:
But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?
We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
04 Feb 10
1 edit
Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
I will take a crack at this. A true confession of faith is more than just mere words. It is because Jesus has indeed become your Lord. Now I don't know the Greek for the word confession but I can guarantee it is more than just words. The devils believe in God! It also says if you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. The work that will be done from the point of confession onward will be because of faith. A metaphor for this is a brand new bridge built but never a car driven across it. You drive your car across this bridge in faith that the engineers and workers did a great job in building this bridge. Your faith in Christ will empower you to do his works. It's a living faith. Also God will not leave you but will empower you to do His will if you will only trust Him. So actually James & Paul were in agreement contrary to what some think. What James said also is true if you indeed have faith you will prove it (Not even trying) by helping those in need!! However it is not by your works that your going to stand in front of God and boast!! God look what I did?? Your works are motivated by love for God and your fellow man.
Manny
ThinkoOne says believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord is way too "cheap".
But just try to get ThinkofOne to confess that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead.
Evidently, he realizes that to make such a confession and have such a belief is not "cheap" to him.
04 Feb 10
3 edits
Originally posted by menace71Yes Manfred , you are not far away me thinks, consider the context for a moment if you will.
Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
I will take a crack at this. A true confession of faith is more than just mere words. It is because Jesus has indeed become your Lord. Now I don't know the Greek for the word confession but I can guarantee it is m od look what I did?? Your works are motivated by love for God and your fellow man.
Manny
(Romans 10:5-10) . . .For Moses writes that the man that has done the righteousness of the Law will live by it. But the righteousness resulting from faith speaks in this manner: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ that is, to bring Christ down; or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.” But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your own mouth and in your own heart”; that is, the “word” of faith, which we are preaching. For if you publicly declare that ‘word in your own mouth,’ that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.
thus it seems quite apparent that there is a process going on here which is more than a mere intellectual exercise, for Paul speaks of the heart, the seat of motivation, the complete inner person, our desires and motivations, our goals and aspirations. What happens when we meditate upon the deep things of God? it percolates into the depths of our heart, we are motivated in gratitude, and we as the scripture states, are motivated to do something about it, in this case to make public declaration for salvation
Thus what is clear is that this is not a mere acknowledgement of Christ, a mere intellectual exercise, it is much deeper than that, the cultivating of Christian qualities, the putting on of a new personality, a complete transformation (metamorphosis) from the old self to the new, the taking in of accurate knowledge of God and Christ through study and research, the helping of others to come to an accurate knowledge of God and Christ through a public ministry, all in all, the complete inner person is involved and therefore it seems that thinkofones assertion that it is 'cheap salvation', is quite without substantiation.
04 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillHead, meet hammer. Nail: driven.
ThinkoOne says believing in your heart that [b]God raised Jesus from the dead and confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord is way too "cheap".
But just try to get ThinkofOne to confess that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead.
Evidently, he realizes that to make such a confession and have such a belief is not "cheap" to him.[/b]
04 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71I agree. I dont think faith is cheap salvation. On the contrary, true faith requires more of oneself than good works alone.Faith in this often despicable situation we find ourselves in, in the faith to count on others. The faith to realize God is imminent and not just some story written in a book is much more difficult to practice than anything else really. Dont you think , ToOne?
Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
I will take a crack at this. A true confession of faith is more than just mere words. It is because Jesus has indeed become your Lord. Now I don't know the Greek for the word confession but I can guarantee it is m ...[text shortened]... od look what I did?? Your works are motivated by love for God and your fellow man.
Manny