A hellish responsibility

Originally posted by FabianFnas

So there aren't any other sources than the 3000 years ideas? Everything there after are either referencing those old ideas from a lost world, or invented by writers and authors from the more modern world, like Dante Alighieri.
Just as I thought. Case closed

So "You shall not steal" was relevant perhaps in the first Century. But it is too old to be relevant to the one who steals in the 21rst Century ?

The same with committing adultery ?
Time has made this no longer a transgression which incurs guilt ?

How about " You shall not covet" ? That means to want something of someone else's jealously and with envy.

This is too old ?
Coveting, murder, adultery, idolatry, stealing, given the passage of many centuries, have lost their evil nature ?

Your complaint is a foolish because the world may change its fashion but God's truth remains the same.

Your complaint is foolish because behind the written word of the Scripture there is the ever present living Holy Spirit of God to apply its timeless truths to each and every age.

Your complaint is foolish because it implies God must update every six to ten years His oracles to accommodate of the changing ages, changing fashions, fads, trends, etc.

Your complaint I think is foolish because God already spanned some 1600 years from the writing of Genesis to Revelation using 40 different and diverse authors to form the compendium of the Bible. What is established is good enough to speak to all generations thereafter.

But He already DID give considerable ground to a gradual unfolding of His profound ways and nature.

Your complaint is also foolish IMO because it is just another excuse.
If the Bible had all been given by God in the last decade, many would say that it does not stand the test of time. But if it was completed many centuries ago an opposite excuse is proposed, it is too old.

Guilty man is expert and rationalizing one excuse or the other. Of course either and any excuse will not amount to a small hill of beans when we stand in the trillion watts of moral light of God illuminating our lives with infallibility, without omission or mistake.

Originally posted by sonship

So there aren't any other sources than the 3000 years ideas? Everything there after are either referencing those old ideas from a lost world, or invented by writers and authors from the more modern world, like Dante Alighieri.
Just as I thought. Case closed

So [b]"You shall not steal" was relevant perhaps in the first Century. But ...[text shortened]... ts of moral light of God illuminating our lives with infallibility, without omission or mistake.[/b]

Did you watch the clips of people burning to death in the London tower block? I suppose their fate was just your God being merciful and sparing them from an eternity of the hellish fire?

Your version of god is a psychopathic monster.

Originally posted by divegeester

Did you watch the clips of people burning to death in the London tower block? I suppose their fate was just your God being merciful and sparing them from an eternity of the hellish fire?

Your version of god is a psychopathic monster.

The audience to Jesus made an observation about tragic deaths and Jesus' response was that men should repent.

" Now there were some present at the same time who reported to Him concerning the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.

And He answered and said to them, Do you think that these Galileans were sinners beyond all the Galileans because they suffered these thing? No, I tell you; but unless you repent you shall all likewise perish.

Or those eighteen on whom the tower of Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were debtors beyond all the men dwelling in Jerusalem ? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:1-3)

There were tragic deaths in those days just as there are tragic deaths today. Some because of the evil of men like the cruel Roman ruler Pilate and some because of accidents.

Jesus here used the relating of these tragedies as an opportunity to warn all sinners that a miserable similar fate will be theirs if they do not repent to be reconciled to God. Was Christ also being a "psychopathic monster" here to use this occasion in this way ?

Originally posted by sonship

Did you watch the clips of people burning to death in the London tower block? I suppose their fate was just your God being merciful and sparing them from an eternity of the hellish fire?

Your version of god is a psychopathic monster.

The audience to Jesus made an observation about tragic deaths and Jesus' response was that men should ...[text shortened]... d to God. Was Christ also being a "psychopathic monster" here to use this occasion in this way ?

Do a word search, see what Jesus talked about more, Heaven or Hell.

Originally posted by sonship

So there aren't any other sources than the 3000 years ideas? Everything there after are either referencing those old ideas from a lost world, or invented by writers and authors from the more modern world, like Dante Alighieri.
Just as I thought. Case closed

So [b]"You shall not steal" was relevant perhaps in the first Century. But ...[text shortened]... ts of moral light of God illuminating our lives with infallibility, without omission or mistake.[/b]

What are you talking about? Are you inventing a question in my name that you are answering? Or are you just avoiding the topic we have in hand? I don't know. You're just ranting around.

You avoid the topic at hand so meticulously so I gather that you know that I am right. You feel ashamed of it but you don't want to admit your faulty thinking, so you avoid the topic altogether. I would do this too if I knew I was wrong and was ashamed of it.
However, I am not here to persuade you to change your ideas, I am here to learn.

There are only sooo many false things you repeat in your 'answer' so I don't know where to begin. But none of them is in-topic, everything is just off. So I just ignore your posting.

There. Do you want to try again?

Originally posted by FabianFnas

What are you talking about?
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What are you talking about. The OP of the responsibility of condemnation and salvation both I have answered.

Without a double check this morning, I believe that my comment to you was about you complaint of God's written oracles being too old. They are as fresh and new as God is Himself. God is ancient but is not old.

Fallen man become old. God is like the evergreen tree. God is always right up-to-date,
Don't complain that the Bible is too old. Seek to receive the Spirit of God to illuminate its pages to your heart. That will be totally current and relevant.


Are you inventing a question in my name that you are answering?
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No. I was extrapolating what I perceived to be your rationale.
Don't argue that the Bible is too old. This is an excuse to shut the heart up so to not hear what God would speak to you.


Or are you just avoiding the topic we have in hand? I don't know. You're just ranting around.
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The OP of the topic was easy. I addressed it already. Now some miscellaneous comments, like the one you made, caught my eye. I have seen it before. So I spoke to it.

e potentially can also.

Now to be fair to you, there is a place where God speaks of the old covenant and the new covenant. And we are told we have a new and living way freshly cut for us. This is the new covenant - the New Testament.

If you touch God you'll realize that though the Bible was completed many centuries ago, God does not grow old. New life will enter your heart making you new also.

Any man being put into Christ becomes a new creation.

" So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold they have become new." ( 2 Cor. 5:17)

In Christ you can become refreshed, renewed, made new, discarding old things of spiritual death, and receiving new divine life and fellowship with God.

You can call this ranting if you wish.
We have something worth ranting about. If anyone is in Christ there is a new creation.


You avoid the topic at hand so meticulously
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The OP was not difficult. I gave the example of the law of gravity being responsible on one hand for the man falling to the ground who leaps out of a ten story building window. And I said on the other hand the one who foolishly jumped was responsible.

Those who reject Christ are responsible for their perishing.
And God is responsible for their perishing for sin is an abomination to God and He will judge the one refusing the salvation He offered.

I have before spoke to God's infinite ability to know exactly who is culpable and who should be exempted. I have before mentioned the book of Jonah which ends in a revelation of God's reluctance to have to judge anyone.

God KNEW the count of the people in the city under judgment who He should exempt. You and i would not know the exact count. But God did. So with our awe of His wisdom we also should have awe of His righteousness that He cannot fail to perfectly balance the moral scales of the universe.

The last verse in Jonah shows that the Judge of all the earth cannot fail to do justly.

" And I, should I not have pity on Nineveh, the great city, in which are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot discern between their right hand and their left, and many cattle. (Jonah 4:11)

God's accounting specified 120,000 people God was aware of personally whose circumstances He would not fail to consider.

Though I don't know the details I know the principle. God Who is perfect in His judgment should be feared and revered and loved. Don't put any trust in Him being confused. And expect that what He says He will do.

If God says to us that whoever's name was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, we ought to give heed. Put no trust in this being impossible for God to sort out.

Come to Christ for being saved from the wrath to come. Do not let pluralism deceive you in thinking it is impossible for the Judge of all the earth to do the exact thing of divine justice. We are dealing with God.

Would you have no sober fear of God's last judgment ? Do you think Jesus died for vanity and an illusion He had concerning YOUR need to be forgiven ? I would advise you not to expect the One of infinite wisdom to be too overcome by multiculturalism and pluralism to be able to judge each and every human being.

" Turn to Me and be saved. All the ends of t he earth, For I am God and there is no one else.

I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and will not return, That every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall swear.

It shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength. To Him shall men come,
And all those who are burning in anger against Him shall be ashamed." (Isaiah 45:22-24)

This Jehovah God became a man - the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Who died and rose that we may be saved. Compare the above to the revelation of the New Testament in Philippians

" That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10,11)

This is the God to whom all the ends of the earth should turn to be saved.


so I gather that you know that I am right.
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The so-called "old" book of the Bible is more than relevant. Do you want to be right and lost forever ? Do you want to win some argument and lose your soul in eternal punishment ?

This will be a responsiblity on you and on God -
for you to respond to His gracious offer in Jesus Christ, and for God Who will be true to His word. He does not bluff.


You feel ashamed of it but you don't want to admit your faulty thinking, so you avoid the topic altogether. I would do this too if I knew I was wrong and was ashamed of it.
However, I am not here to persuade you to change your ideas, I am here to learn.
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I don't really understand this paragraph.
It seems a kind of false strutting around imagining something vain about your opinion trumping the word of God.

The better way is to let the word of God rise above you and lift you.
God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.


There are only sooo many false things you repeat in your 'answer' so I don't know where to begin. But none of them is in-topic, everything is just off. So I just ignore your posting.

There. Do you want to try again?
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I have confidence mostly in the Bible. I showed you some things from it which I have confidence in. If I can be convicted to receive Jesus anyone else can also.

Originally posted by sonship
Now to be fair to you, there is a place where God speaks of the old covenant and the new covenant. And we are told we have a new and living way freshly cut for us. This is the new covenant - the New Testament.

If you touch God you'll realize that though the Bible was completed many centuries ago, God does not grow old. New life will enter your heart mak ...[text shortened]... lake of fire, we ought to give heed. Put no trust in this being impossible for God to sort out.

I still don't know of what posting you are answering.

So I repeat the one I thought you abject to, so you can try again:

Quote:
"Hell is something to scare your children with so they obey you without questioning.
Spiritual leaders have scared their followers from the beginning, someone wrote it in the scrolls, and we can read it today in the bible.

Parents do it, they call it bogeyman or monster under your bed, to scare to obedience. They use Santa Claus and tooth fairy to encourage children to be nice. (Or else...!)
In every time, in every culture, there are mythical entities to make the lesser knowers to control them. To make them obey or just to be nice to people with powers.

I say christians are manipulated. Taken away their freedom of thinking. To obey. To worship, not god, but the spiritual leaders (the pope, the priest, the king etc), or their organization (the church, the government, etc). To be a sheep, to use the biblical term for it. The same goes to every religion that has power. Religious people are manipulated.

We live in the twenty-first century, but some live their lives as it is still twenty-first century BCE. But I am sure that times will change and rationality will rule in the near future.

Religion is evil. Believing and worshiping in a god, calling him good and loveful, yet created and organize eternal hell. Allowing cancer in infants. Allowing wars in his name. Wanting theocracies as rulings and controlling lesser educated people. And so on, and so on... "
Unquote.

Originally posted by FabianFnas

"Hell is something to scare your children with so they obey you without questioning. "

That is a convenient excuse. And it seems to preclude that children should never be told anything which is a serious life concern.

If you ever raised children you knew that at an appropriate time you gave them warnings to which you hoped benefit would be derived by them in cognizance of those warnings.


Spiritual leaders have scared their followers from the beginning, someone wrote it in the scrolls, and we can read it today in the bible.
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This generalization doesn't impress me. I agree that warnings can be abused. And I agree that there are things which I do not agree should be told children in the ways in which some abusers tell them.

From that agreement I do not extrapolate what Jesus Christ taught was an abusive scare tactic. You are wanting to make that generalization. I am not. BUT I do agree that some presentations of topics touched by Christ are with the wrong spirit and can damage people.

i had a New York policeman curse at me and threaten to beat me up on the loud speaker of his car. That was an abuse of his authority.

Can I take that experience and generalize it that I do not have to listen to the law anymore at all ? I cannot make that blanket generalization.


Parents do it, they call it bogeyman or monster under your bed,
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I don't think I need to add more at this point.
You cannot discard the Bible because of Santa Claus or the bogeyman stories.

These are strawman arguments which are easy to knock down THINKING you've made some valid point against the timeless teaching of Christ.


to scare to obedience. They use Santa Claus and tooth fairy to encourage children to be nice. (Or else...!)
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There is too much difference between the redemptive life, death, and resurrection of Christ with the children's stories of Santa, tooth fairies placing a dime under your pillow, or the bogeyman.

Your excuses for not regarding all the words of Christ based on these strawman arguments are not impressive at all.


In every time, in every culture, there are mythical entities to make the lesser knowers to control them. To make them obey or just to be nice to people with powers.
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So we can question your motive to just want to control people as well.
What makes you exempt ?

You have here your own "bogeyman" of exaggerated generalizations.
Others do it and it is "control".
When you do it it is somehow something else ?

Don't look now but this is your own brand of seeking to derive obedience according to your own prejudices.

If you want to adopt an all-consuming "Question Authority" philosophy, we can start by questioning yours.

Originally posted by sonship

"Hell is something to scare your children with so they obey you without questioning. "

That is a convenient excuse. And it seems to preclude that children should never be told anything which is a serious life concern.

If you ever raised children you knew that at an appropriate time you gave them warnings to which you hoped benefit ...[text shortened]... nt to adopt an all-consuming "Question Authority" philosophy, we can start by questioning yours.

Seems that you agree with me in the important points - that there is a reason to scare children with the bogey man and eternal burning in hell and it is effective lies to make children to obey the parents. And that it works on grown-ups too.

To get the desired result it is okay to lie.

No, I don't think so. It's much better to reason with people. But that's just my opinion.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Seems that you agree with me in the important points - that there is a reason to scare children with the bogey man and eternal burning in hell and it is effective lies to make children to obey the parents. And that it works on grown-ups too.

To get the desired result it is okay to lie.

No, I don't think so. It's much better to reason with people. But that's just my opinion.

Points which are important to you, in terms of "Can fear be exploited ?" of course I agree.

Points which are important to the topic and to me include "Does this mean Christ lied or exploited fear to control?" The answer is no - your generalizations do not follow on to prove that.

What is important to me is that God is true even if every man be a liar.

Now let's put one to you so I can flesh out exactly what you mean. If I have a child of some appropriate age read John 3:16 you are saying that is automatically me trying to manipulate control of that child to me ?

" For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life." (John 3:6)

Now you may say "Sonship you are bogeyman-ing some child to munipulate their obedience to YOU.

I say you are full of baloney. I say that I am telling the child of one verse telling of the great love of Christ to save us from our sins.

More than that I would encourage the young person at the right age to read the ENTIRE Gospel of John for THEMSELVES. I would not say "You ONLY need to hear this verse 16." I would say "It is good for you to read the whole Gospel of John yourself, and with prayer to see how God would personally speak to you.

So is it evil for me to read John 3:16 to some young person ?

Is it evil to encourage them to read more and to get their own impression of these words out of the mouth of Jesus of Nazareth ?

If you come back and say that it is evil to expose a child at the proper time to the life, deeds, and ALL the words of Jesus Christ , then I would say that you are completely wrong.

If I see a child who has been damaged by someone, perhaps I would seek God;s wisdom on which part of the life and teaching of Jesus they should hear about. Maybe there would be a more helpful portion of the Bible for them to derive something from to correct bad impressions left by an ignorant adult.

Originally posted by sonship
There were tragic deaths in those days just as there are tragic deaths today.

So what? You are the master of the pointless quip.

The tradegy here is that you actually believe Jesus will do a Grenfell Tower on billions of people, supernaturally and intentionally keeping it burning and billions alive in it for eternity.

It's a disgraceful sleight on the nature of God.

Originally posted by divegeester
So what? You are the master of the pointless quip.

The tradegy here is that you actually believe Jesus will do a Grenfell Tower on billions of people, supernaturally and intentionally keeping it burning and billions alive in it for eternity.

It's a disgraceful sleight on the nature of God.

You are ashamed of some of His words. (Luke 9:26; Mark 8:38)

In supplying a reasonable alternative interpretation to those words of which you are ashamed, you have not done good job.

The words of Jesus of which you are ashamed you have utterly failed to show they are my words put into Christ's mouth. And you have not produced any textural argument that those words were copyists' concoctions made after the writing of the Greek New Testament.

I don't have to LIKE all of God's word.
I do have to believe them.

Originally posted by sonship
You are ashamed of some of His words.

You pompous man, it's YOU I'm ashamed of.

You're belief brings the gospel into disrepute and I don't need to provide an alternative to your horrible doctrines, YOU need to explain and justify them.