A follower of Satan

Originally posted by @sonship
The comment I made about what you wrote sounding like Christian Science, I retrack.
I realized that I was wrong, after reading it more carefully.

Bad call.

I do not even dare to try to recall how many times I were wrong. Namaste;
😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
I said what I said: Devil is nobody's Father. Father of Kosmos and of every sentient being is only G-d, according to the Christian dogma.

"Father of sinful or fallen men" is just a metaphor. Everything came into being by G-d's will. Sinful or fallen men are not born by devil; they are merely deceived by the devil and they can change this condition by accepting to cross the Bridge.

Rom. 10:4 has the meaning you offered.
😵

"Father of sinful or fallen men" is just a metaphor. Everything came into being by G-d's will. Sinful or fallen men are not born by devil; they are merely deceived by the devil and they can change this condition by accepting to cross the Bridge.

Fallen man, though, was not just deceived by the Devil. Fallen man received a nature. That is a foreign element entered into him which "constituted" him a sinner with a nature not of God, from another source.

"For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous." (Rom. 5:19 Recovery Version)

The situation for the Christian is a little complicated. For on one hand being regenerated he has become, in his innermost being, a partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4), in the fallen body he is still "constituted" with a Satanic nature.

So there is a battle going on throughout the Christian life until the transfiguration of the body.

How much of a metaphor is the saying "You are of your father the Devil" (8:44)
might be an argument. But for certain the believer is a son of God because of partaking of the divine nature of the Father. And correspondingly, before being justified and born of God, we are constituted with the nature of the Devil.

And afterwards we still have that nature in the fallen body though deeper within we are partakers of the divine nature.

For sure we have many more passages speaking of God as our Father (as believers) then we do saying the Devil is our father. But we have a few verses emphasizing that there is a fallen nature, derived from an enemy of God -

for example "children of wrath" in Ephesians 2:3 or "children of disobedience" in Colossians 3:6.

I would agree with you in my way of saying the NT announces many more times that God is the Father of the believers in Christ. So that is where the weightier emphasis I would want to put.

PS I meant "retract" not "retrack".

Originally posted by @sonship

"Father of sinful or fallen men" is just a metaphor. Everything came into being by G-d's will. Sinful or fallen men are not born by devil; they are merely deceived by the devil and they can change this condition by accepting to cross the Bridge.

Fallen man, though, was not just deceived by the Devil. Fallen man received a nature. That ...[text shortened]... that is where the weightier emphasis I would want to put.

PS I meant "retract" not "retrack".

Methinks the situation for the Christian disciple is crystal clear.

It is my knowledge this is the context in which John presents your Teacher at 8:43-45. Think it through:

43. Why do you not understand my language, that you cannot hear my word? 44. You are of your father the devil, and you wish to execute the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he did not remain in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

Why is the speech of the Teacher to them barbarous and unknown, so that he gains nothing by speaking to them, and so that they do not even try to open their ears to receive his word even when he uses the same language they use? The Teacher tells them not only that they are fools, but also that their obstinate and ungovernable hatred of his word is rooted on devil’s instigation, while previously (8:39) he removed their boasting as regards their right to judge him in the name of G-d because they are Abraham’s children. The Teacher calls them “children of the devil” for they imitate the devil, and also because they are led by his instigation to fight against the Son of G-d. For the Christians are called “children of G-d” because he governs them by his Spirit, due to the fact that the Teacher lives vigorously in them in order to conform them to the image of his Father.
On the contrary, the devil –a dangerous murderer as demonstrated also in 1 Peter 5:8– is said to be the father of those whose understandings he blinds, whose hearts he moves to commit all unrighteousness, and on whose he acts powerfully and exercises his tyranny. This meaning is also clear in 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 amongst else. The Teacher does not say that the devil is really their father, for their Father is still G-d, who waits for them to repent and receive his Grace through Jesus.
All in all, it is a case of a metaphor with multiple layers of sensemaking. With this passage John wants the disciples to use all the power of their will and faith in order to conceive directly the clarity of Jesus’ teaching. A teaching quite simple for anybody who is free from devil’s attraction, a huge yet unconceivably weak attraction in comparison to the attraction that comes from the Father. A teaching so luminous, yet so elusive to a person whose deceived spirit is trapped in the darkness and thus cannot see the Light of the World.


45. “And because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.”

Although the Teacher is the Light of the World, they cannot just open their eyes and see the Light directly. For the ones deceived by the devil the father of lies, do not follow anyone and anything; in separation from G-d they wander in the complete darkness, for they keep their eyes shut and cannot see the Teacher as he is, as the Son of G-d, so they cannot believe the Teacher. If only they could open their eyes they would see the Light, and they could then conduct righteousness according to the law of G-d in order to remain in the Light by Grace.


So we could probably agree that the Teacher does not relate to the transmission of substance but to the corruption of nature, which is caused solely by man’s revolt. When men, therefore, are said to be “born children of the devil” it must not be imputed to creation, but to the blame of sin. It’s simply a metaphor. A metaphor that must not be used by means that cultivate dichotomy and hatred😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Methinks the situation for the Christian disciple is crystal clear.

It is my knowledge this is the context in which John presents your Teacher at 8:43-45. Think it through:

43. Why do you not understand my language, that you cannot hear my word? 44. You are of your father the devil, and you wish to execute the desires of your father. He was a mu ...[text shortened]... mply a metaphor. A metaphor that must not be used by means that cultivate dichotomy and hatred😵

So we could probably agree that the Teacher does not relate to the transmission of substance but to the corruption of nature, which is caused solely by man’s revolt.

There has been something transmitted into man's body. And there is the need for the transfiguration of the body.

"For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Who will TRANSFIGURE the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself." (Phil. 3:21,22)

Something evil has been transmitted to dwell in our fallen body. And while sanctification and transformation take place resurrection and transfiguration are called for to save the fallen body.

This is "the body of our humiliation".

Paul says that nothing good dwells in his flesh. I don't think he meant that the functions of his body, like reaching, seeing, talking, hearing, grasping, walking, etc. are not good. But he does mean something has been transmitted into the "me" of his body which is a evil dwelling foreign element.

"For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells, for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not.

For I do not do the good which I will, but the evil which I do not will, this I practice." (Rom 7:18,19)

Something not good dwells in man's fallen body. And Paul cries out to be delivered from the body of this death.

"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! ..." (vs.24,25a)

The "body of this death" is also "the body of our humiliation" which needs resurrection, rapture and transfiguration.

But if someone suggested that man by CREATION had this evil thing working in the flesh, i would say that that is wrong. By the fall from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, something attached its evil self to man's body ever-after.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
God is not a human being, so yes God does not murder. He gives life and takes life.

You might not call it murder, just like the generals in war don't call the people their people kill murder either. The people are still just as dead.

The Noah story is just that, a parable designed to whip people into submission, see, if you don't beleive in me this is what COULD happen... but people now take that literally and go to great lenghts like Ken Ham spending 150 million to reproduce what we think the Ark looks like but building refutes the whole tale! 150 million dollars, 2000 workers taking 2 years using all the modern equipment money can buy, yet the story goes 8 dudes put it together in a month or two with axes and hammers.

But those details don't bother the literalists.

Originally posted by @sonship

So we could probably agree that the Teacher does not relate to the transmission of substance but to the corruption of nature, which is caused solely by man’s revolt.

There has been something transmitted into man's body. And there is the need for the transfiguration of the body.

[quote] [b] "For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, ...[text shortened]... ee of the knowledge of good and evil, something attached its evil self to man's body ever-after.

Yes.

According to your Teacher, devil contrived the destruction of man instigated by a wicked desire to destroy him; he was not wicked by nature, he was a liar because he revolted from the Truth. The fact that he is a liar does not arise from his nature having been always contrary to Truth, but because he fell from it by his free will alone. The same holds for the deceived by the Snake fallen man.

So every disciple must be constantly on guard in order to repel devil’s brutal violence and fury. The most deadly weapon of devil is falsehood. The blame of falsehood does not belong to G-d. This falsehood of the devil (generated from his apostasy) cannot erase the divine nature of the fallen man, whose nature is also obscured for the same reason; and man’s divine nature is safe from falsehood when the disciple has the Armor of G-d.

Still, when it is said "children of Satan", it does not relate to a transmission of substance to the fallen man, but to a mark as regards the corruption of his nature caused by his revolt, a fruit that came into being from his choice, not from his nature. A useful, in the context of your tradition, metaphor with many layers of sensemaking. devil is nobody's Father.
😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Yes.

According to your Teacher, devil contrived the destruction of man instigated by a wicked desire to destroy him; he was not wicked by nature, he was a liar because he revolted from the Truth. The fact that he is a liar does not arise from his nature having been always contrary to Truth, but because he fell from it by his free will alone. The sam ...[text shortened]... text of your tradition, metaphor with many layers of sensemaking. devil is nobody's Father.
😵

Thanks for sharing your testimony.

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Yes.

According to your Teacher, devil contrived the destruction of man instigated by a wicked desire to destroy him; he was not wicked by nature, he was a liar because he revolted from the Truth. The fact that he is a liar does not arise from his nature having been always contrary to Truth, but because he fell from it by his free will alone. The sam ...[text shortened]... text of your tradition, metaphor with many layers of sensemaking. devil is nobody's Father.
😵

Yes.

According to your Teacher,
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Just out of curiosity, does this mean Jesus is my Teacher, but He is not your Teacher ? It kind of hints at that tone.


devil contrived the destruction of man instigated by a wicked desire to destroy him; he was not wicked by nature, he was a liar because he revolted from the Truth.
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I see in the Bible that the Devil brought about something new in the universe - the introduction of a new will. I think I understand that the Devil is the origin of wickedness, evil and all.

God said that He would draw fire from the midst of him. I have usually understood that to mean out from his heart and being something of a new evil nature sprung forth from this one who revolted from the Truth.

Yuk!


The fact that he is a liar does not arise from his nature having been always contrary to Truth, but because he fell from it by his free will alone.
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However we think of it, he is called the father of lies. And he speaks out of his "treasure" or personal possessions nothing but lies. This is John 8.

Christ overcame Him completely.
The saints will eventually also totally overcome him.

He injected something of his evil nature into man.
The imagery of a poisoness serpent biting and poisoning man (John 3:14 comp Num. 21:9 & John 8:28) , indicates something injected into man.

The same holds for the deceived by the Snake fallen man.

So every disciple must be constantly on guard in order to repel devil’s brutal violence and fury.
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I did say that the Christian who is a partaker of the divine nature, making him a child of God by a divine nature, is a bit complicated. That is because a foreign evil element of some kind is warring against that divine nature from the fallen body.

The body is also called "the body of sin" (Rom. 6:6) along with " the body of this death" and "the body of our humiliation."

The most deadly weapon of devil is falsehood. The blame of falsehood does not belong to G-d.
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That is probably right.


This falsehood of the devil (generated from his apostasy) cannot erase the divine nature of the fallen man, whose nature is also obscured for the same reason; and man’s divine nature is safe from falsehood when the disciple has the Armor of G-d.
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The man created does not have the divine nature in the same sense that Peter said the regenerated / reborn believers are partakers of the divine nature.

In other words there is the need to be born of God, born again, and born from above to receive the divine nature Peter speaks of . We are not born with it.

However, there is something of a divine stamp in man that ALL humans are created in the image of God. This is like a glove being in the image of a human hand.

Man was created in a "God shaped" manner so that God might "fit" into man comfortably in the end.

That is all I can write or read right now.

- sonship

Originally posted by @eladar
Thanks for sharing your testimony.

Kindly please feel free to expand and share with us yours😵

Originally posted by @gswilm
[b]Yes.

According to your Teacher,
---------------------------------------------------
Just out of curiosity, does this mean Jesus is my Teacher, but He is not your Teacher ? It kind of hints at that tone.


devil contrived the destruction of man instigated by a wicked desire to destroy him; he was not wicked by nature, he was a liar bec ...[text shortened]... it" into man comfortably in the end.

That is all I can write or read right now.

- sonship

Edit: I see in the Bible that the Devil brought about something new in the universe - the introduction of a new will. I think I understand that the Devil is the origin of wickedness, evil and all.


It is my knowledge devil brought nothing new under the sun. For devil's falsehood is not his nature by G-d; devil's nature is the (obscured by devil's falsehood) divine nature that G-d gave him.
The introduction of devil's will does not establish neither the extermination of the devil's divine nature, neither the extermination of the divine nature of the fallen man who is created by G-d the Father of All. In the substance of the divine nature nothing can be injected and nothing can be removed, because the divine nature created by G-d the Father of All is eternally divine nature under all circumstances and it does not change. As the first sentient being who revolted against G-d's law, devil is simply understood metaphorically as the "Origin of Evil".

What exactly happened as regards the divine nature of devil? Nothing. His nature remained, and still remains, the same, exact divine nature that was given to him by his creator G-d the Father. The factor on whom the Origin of Evil is grounded, is merely the devil's mind, from which the projection and the manifestation per se of the evil took place. This projection is so powerful that takes place (we see the results of its manifestation, that is) in the factual world, our physical world, which is for this reason named "World of Lies".

The Son of G-d came to this World of Lies with a specific multileved purpose: To destroy the Son of the Morning and his evil mental projection, which are deadly to the soul of the fallen man; and, by doing so, to save the fallen man.
devil and his evil mental projection are not deadly because they have the power on their own to destroy the soul of the fallen man. They are deadly because they have merely the power to blind the mind of the fallen man; then, as a consequence, the fallen man cannot see the Light and, deceived as he ends up, he keeps (by his own deceived mind's will) his soul separated from G-d. Your Teacher came here in order to save the deceived fallen man.

The "injection" you implied that takes place, according to my purely subjective, fallible knowledge takes place strictly in the realm of the mind of the fallen man, not in the realm of his eternally divine nature. I see as case the injection of falsehood in the mind of the fallen man. The falsehood that the devil attempts to inject in the mind of the fallen man cannot take place when the mind of the fallen man is protected by the Armor of G-d.

Think it over from another angle (John 1. 1-5) and meditate on the word of your Teacher:
How is it possible for Evil to really have an origin, since Evil (whilst allowed for specific reasons by G-d) is not a part of G-d's creation from the beginning and therefore it was never born by G-d, for whatever is born is solely born by G-d the Father of All? If Evil was really grounded on an origin from the beginning, this origin should by definition be grounded on G-d's creation, which is an absurd tenet. So, what gives?
Evil cannot be negated; because it is real; and it is real because we see it taking place all the time. But evil lacks of inherent substance because it is not a part of G-d's creation, and as such it simply cannot exist on its own being. It is unborn yet it exists, and it exists simply because it is a powerful Lucifer's Dream (amongst countless other Lies) whose projection in the World of Lies is the cause of countless manifestations that deceive and thus keep the fallen man trapped under its spell. Lucifer's Dream per se is unable to inject anything but falsehood in the mind/ spirit of the fallen man, and falsehood injected in the mind is causing wounds deadly to the soul although the essence of the soul of the fallen man has eternally divine nature.
This is my subjective, fallible knowledge as regards the specific way I read both John and Ezekiel.



Edit: Just out of curiosity, does this mean Jesus is my Teacher, but He is not your Teacher ? It kind of hints at that tone.

He is one of the masters to which I bow with deep respect, but although I learn constantly from him he is not my Teacher the way he is to you, for I am of a different mindstream.
I acknowledge he is the Master of the Christian tradition and that, for you and all the Christians, he is the Son of the supernatural entity you perceive as G-d the Father. In order to cope with my tradition I had to study in depth your Teacher's word too, and I keep up meditating very often deeply in the Orthodox Greek mindstream of his luminous projections.
😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Edit: I see in the Bible that the Devil brought about something new in the universe - the introduction of a new will. I think I understand that the Devil is the origin of wickedness, evil and all.


It is my knowledge devil brought nothing new under the sun. For devil's falsehood is not his nature by G-d; devil's nature is the (obscured by devil's ...[text shortened]... p meditating very often deeply in the Orthodox Greek mindstream of his luminous projections.
😵

Jesus did not come to defeat Satan. Sin leads to death. Satan was already dead.

Since Adam's sin, man has already been dead.

Jesus came to allow the possibility of life for those who reject Adam's choice.

Originally posted by @eladar
Jesus did not come to defeat Satan. Sin leads to death. Satan was already dead.

Since Adam's sin, man has already been dead.

Jesus came to allow the possibility of life for those who reject Adam's choice.

At the specific level you are talking about, dead entities such as devil and the fallen men are functional as if they were not dead; your Teacher came to defeat (the dead at a certain level) devil so his function comes at last to an end even at the level of the World of Lies. Only after the final end of devil the fallen man can live again. This is the task of your Teacher I reckon😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
At the specific level you are talking about, dead entities such as devil and the fallen men are functional as if they were not dead; your Teacher came to defeat (the dead at a certain level) devil so his function comes at last to an end even at the level of the World of Lies. Only after the final end of devil the fallen man can live again. This is the task of your Teacher I reckon😵

This world is only temporary. In the end, the dead are dead. As Jesus said, let the dead bury the dead.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
Of course your god NEVER murders does it? What was that story, it's on the tip of my tongue.

Oh yeah

NOAH.

So how many people did you god kill THAT time?

To say nothing of murdering all the land life on Earth. Such a show of grace.

God has set limits upon every life, He does not murder He calls into account.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
You might not call it murder, just like the generals in war don't call the people their people kill murder either. The people are still just as dead.

The Noah story is just that, a parable designed to whip people into submission, see, if you don't beleive in me this is what COULD happen... but people now take that literally and go to great lenghts like ...[text shortened]... her in a month or two with axes and hammers.

But those details don't bother the literalists.

Where do you see who was all involved working on the Ark, and that it only took a couple of
months to build?