21 Nov 04
Originally posted by FeivelSo, you've noticed a dramatic change in engine use in 7 days. BS!
No. As I said earlier i have more opponents now (since this thread started here) that are computers who wern't computers before this thread started. This thread is pointing out the folly of "vigilante" justice.
Feivel
D
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by RagnorakI have 60 games in progress. Go look yourself. And as far as the 7 days, I neglected to mention the two threads that i have been told about that are on crib's site.
So, you've noticed a dramatic change in engine use in 7 days. BS!
D
Feivel
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by FeivelOk,maybe I don't know the cheaters mindset at all,but the question stands still:what should be done about it?
Why do you think you know the cheaters mindset better then anybody else? Cheaters want attention (recognition if you prefer) and that doesn't have anything to do with the type.
Feivel
Yet discussing it it's a good thing itself IMHO,and seems like there are three main wings:
The intransigent wing which wish the cheaters to be proven and banned .
The moderated wing which thinks that a warning to them would be sufficient.
The ''who cares'' wing which simply doesn't care about this matter and hates to see this kind of threads in forums,wether there are proven cheats or not.
Debate is more open than ever...........
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by RavelloDiscussing things is good but if we discuss PUBLICLY then we are not only planning but we help cheaters (current and new) learn how to avoid detection. I see only two groups not three as you said. There are those (apparently your one) who want's to see cheaters proven and banned (apparently vigilante justice is ok by this wing) And the second group wants to see cheaters identified and dealt with but just not identified in the same manner as the first group. The first group advocates a vigilante justice eerily reminiscent of the Salem witch trials. The second group advocates no such thing. Also, Russ has made it clear that he does not favor the first groups ideas and he has also made it clear on numerous occasions that he doesn't condone vigilantes on this (his) site. I don't see a third group at all. Somehow you seem to have decided that silence equates with apathy. That might be a cultural difference but I can assure you that it is certainly not the truth.
Ok,maybe I don't know the cheaters mindset at all,but the question stands still:what should be done about it?
Yet discussing it it's a good thing itself IMHO,and seems like there are three main wings:
The intransigent wing which wish the cheaters to be proven and banned .
The moderated wing which thinks that a warning to them would be sufficient.
The ...[text shortened]... s in forums,wether there are proven cheats or not.
Debate is more open than ever...........
Feivel
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by FeivelOk,matter closed as it is clear that :
Discussing things is good but if we discuss PUBLICLY then we are not only planning but we help cheaters (current and new) learn how to avoid detection. I see only two groups not three as you said. There are those (apparently your one) who want's to see cheaters proven and banned (apparently vigilante justice is ok by this wing) And the second group wants to ...[text shortened]... ight be a cultural difference but I can assure you that it is certainly not the truth.
Feivel
1)The admins and the majority of users doesn't want to read in forums who cheaters are and dislikes the ''vigilante group'' acting.
2)It's useless to give rock solid proofs like game analisis with chess engines with a 90-95% match with the moves of the analised game.
3)Current state of things give to engine users an immunity from other users trying to prove their engine abuse,as this is not welcome in the community to prove it.
4)If things remain like they always been, cheaters will prosper more and more.
5)It's better to don't say anything because it can hurt the community sensibility,until the next time someone says ''pimpstick'' in forums....
6)The admins prefer to not deal with this kind of problems in public,or not to deal with it at all.
7)Playing tournaments and clan games becomes very funny knowing that there's people free to use a chess program to make their moves.
I'm going to eat something,good luck to all ,maybe you'll face some engine user in the next tournament round!
Isn't it cool?
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by Ravello1)The admins and the majority of users doesn't want to read in forums who cheaters are and dislikes the ''vigilante group'' acting.
Ok,matter closed as it is clear that :
1)The admins and the majority of users doesn't want to read in forums who cheaters are and dislikes the ''vigilante group'' acting.
2)It's useless to give rock solid proofs like game analisis with chess engines with a 90-95% match with the moves of the analised game.
3)Current state of things give to engi ...[text shortened]... luck to all ,maybe you'll face some engine user in the next tournament round!
Isn't it cool?
Definitely true.
2)It's useless to give rock solid proofs like game analisis with chess engines with a 90-95% match with the moves of the analised game.
No it is not useless but see your first point before posting it.
3)Current state of things give to engine users an immunity from other users trying to prove their engine abuse,as this is not welcome in the community to prove it.
Current state of things gives USERS an immunity from other USERS.
4)If things remain like they always been, cheaters will prosper more and more.
Ok...that is your opinion and it is a valid one. However I do not believe it to be true and the games i am playing against engines here show me otherwise.
5)It's better to don't say anything because it can hurt the community sensibility,until the next time someone says ''pimpstick'' in forums....
I thought better of you...
6)The admins prefer to not deal with this kind of problems in public,or not to deal with it at all.
The first is correct. The second is just opinion.
7)Playing tournaments and clan games becomes very funny knowing that there's people free to use a chess program to make their moves.
Actually a game is a game no matter who your opponent.
maybe you'll face some engine user in the next tournament round!
Already am and as I said a game is a game regardless of the opponent.
Feivel
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by RavelloYou apparently have a problem with english Ravello. What is the word after Russ? Is it does or seems? Does seems mean the same as does?
Well,I asked to a mod before posting here the game of tlai and this was his (partial) answer:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good luck... I don't care for the cheaters... and Russ seems to not want to do anything about it!
I know these guys are cheating... there is sooooo much evidence like yours! ...[text shortened]... inion?
If even mods say that Russ won't do anything,well,I lose my (already few) faith in it.
Feivel
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by FeivelOk,I'm definitely done with this matter.
You apparently have a problem with english Ravello. What is the word after Russ? Is it does or seems? Does seems mean the same as does?
Feivel
I'm waiting for some actions taken in the next months,and if they will be taken (I speak about public warnings or banning by admins) I'll post my excuses to you and bring the forum title ''I'm a moron'' for a month.
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by Ravelloyour not a moron. Your just wrong 🙂
Ok,I'm definitely done with this matter.
I'm waiting for some actions taken in the next months,and if they will be taken (I speak about public warnings or banning by admins) I'll post my excuses to you and bring the forum title ''I'm a moron'' for a month.
Feivel
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by FeivelSo are you just using the argument style of 'if I say it with enough confidence, then my opponent will believe it!' or do you actually know for a fact that something is being done behind the scenes?
your not a moron. Your just wrong 🙂
Feivel
Basically, without divulging any info, have you been informed of processes being implemented to hinder the cheats?
D
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by RagnorakRuss has said something about it and he informed quite a few people. it is just certain people have grown impatient and think justice is better served by becoming a vigilante group.
So are you just using the argument style of 'if I say it with enough confidence, then my opponent will believe it!' or do you actually know for a fact that something is being done behind the scenes?
Basically, without divulging any info, have you been informed of processes being implemented to hinder the cheats?
D
Feivel
21 Nov 04
Originally posted by FeivelDo all your posts have be condescending?
Russ has said something about it and he informed quite a few people. it is just certain people have grown impatient and think justice is better served by becoming a vigilante group.
Feivel
If you read the thread title, it is 'Ideas for dealing with engines?'. It was basically a thread created to try to think of some workable suggestions to deal with engine users. All of the suggestions would have had to be implemented by Russ. This is not the behaviour of a 'vigilante' group. As you say, this 'vigilante' group is targeting members. Read this whole thread, and tell me how many posts are targetted at named players.
If either Russ or one of the privileged 'quite a few people' had stepped in at the start, and just said the simple words, 'be patient, something is being done in the background', then I reckon you would have saved a lot of people's time, who were racking their brains trying to think up systems which Russ could have implemented to protect us against cheaters. Hell, if your second post had told us straight out that something was going to happen, this thread would have been shorter by 3 pages, and again people would have saved time arguing with you.
I'm glad something is being done, and I leave it at that.
D
22 Nov 04
Originally posted by RagnorakHow was calling a spade a spade condescending? I suppose a vigilante group of users attempting to prove other users are computers AGAINST THE WISHES OF THE SITE ADMIN is not a vigilante group. If you have a problem with my argument that is fine. Try to debate the argument butr attacking the poster and saying his posts are condescending is beneath contempt and it is the action of a pure unadulterated idiot.
Do all your posts have be condescending?
If you read the thread title, it is 'Ideas for dealing with engines?'. It was basically a thread created to try to think of some workable suggestions to deal with engine users. All of the suggestions would have had to be implemented by Russ. This is not the behaviour of a 'vigilante' group. As you say, thi ...[text shortened]... aved time arguing with you.
I'm glad something is being done, and I leave it at that.
D
Feivel
22 Nov 04
Feivel to think that any cheaters want negitive attention is streaching it a bit. I have proof that they dont, you only have to read FW for a bit to see one cheater on there telling people to stop posting his games with analysis. As for the mindset of cheaters. Why do people cheat, the first reason is probably to get their ratings up, that comes with many benefits. Since top players are sought after and this is the attention the cheaters want. Isnt it also possible that you arent playing more engines, but have only just started to notice it more ? Without say JW's name being connected with an engine, people might notice it at different times, however once it hits the forums a lot of people know about the possiblity together. Maybe your sudden intrest in this forum is from Sean accusting you, which shows that it can be damaging to people, Id imagine you dont cheat reading some of your amusing chess posts, however that and what has been done against people like JW is totally different, its not as though anyone is saying they dont cheat. This thread was started as a way to let people express their views and ideas about dealing with them, I really dont think that it is responble for creating more, only the slack attitude in dealing with known cheaters can do that.