29 Oct 14
Originally posted by DeepThoughtHow old was the wine that Jesus made from water at the point that he turned water into wine?
The universe looks quite convincingly like it is 13.8 billion years old. This means either it is or it has been made to look that old. If it's been made to look that old then its been created with a history so convincing that we can't distinguish between the created history and a "real" one. So it doesn't particularly matter from a scientific point of ...[text shortened]... rse is older than it is, and partly because the "false" history appears to contradict the Bible.
It was pretty convincing wine. It must have taken the typical amount of time to make as normal win.
30 Oct 14
Originally posted by EladarWhy are you bringing up biblical fairy tales in the science forum? You act as if that BS tale was real.
How old was the wine that Jesus made from water at the point that he turned water into wine?
It was pretty convincing wine. It must have taken the typical amount of time to make as normal win.
30 Oct 14
Originally posted by EladarWhether he is a theist or not, he was clearly saying the scientific evidence doesn't support there being a God and fundamentalists are wrong when they claim it does.
My reply was to deepthought. It was my assumption that he believed in God and the possibility of miracles.
I think then it is reasonable to assume that he probably doesn't believe wine was possibly miraculously made from water?
31 Oct 14
Originally posted by EladarIn the case of any of the Biblical miracles after Exodus we wouldn't expect to find any evidence which either supports or denies them. With everything from judges onwards there isn't anything that we'd particularly expect to find remnants from. They are all small scale events. So the water into wine story doesn't leave us with anomalous evidence. The creation story in the Bible is completely at odds with observation, so it shouldn't be regarded as literally true. There are problems with the historicity of the Exodus story, .
How old was the wine that Jesus made from water at the point that he turned water into wine?
It was pretty convincing wine. It must have taken the typical amount of time to make as normal win.
31 Oct 14
Originally posted by DeepThoughtProblems for you atheists, not for Eladar and me.
In the case of any of the Biblical miracles after Exodus we wouldn't expect to find any evidence which either supports or denies them. With everything from judges onwards there isn't anything that we'd particularly expect to find remnants from. They are all small scale events. So the water into wine story doesn't leave us with anomalous evidence. The ...[text shortened]... t be regarded as literally true. There are problems with the historicity of the Exodus story, .
02 Nov 14
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI see that you are unwilling to discuss the aspects of miracles which I have tried to discuss. It would require you to reevaluate your position and I understand why you would really just rather ignore it.
In the case of any of the Biblical miracles after Exodus we wouldn't expect to find any evidence which either supports or denies them. With everything from judges onwards there isn't anything that we'd particularly expect to find remnants from. They are all small scale events. So the water into wine story doesn't leave us with anomalous evidence. The ...[text shortened]... t be regarded as literally true. There are problems with the historicity of the Exodus story, .
Cheers.
02 Nov 14
Originally posted by EladarIs there something scientific in all this? If not, why are you posting in the science forum?
I see that you are unwilling to discuss the aspects of miracles which I have tried to discuss. It would require you to reevaluate your position and I understand why you would really just rather ignore it.
Cheers.
04 Nov 14
Originally posted by sonhouseYou mean making the observation about the limits of science when it comes to understanding the human condition? Sure, that's appropriate for this forum.
Is there something scientific in all this? If not, why are you posting in the science forum?
04 Nov 14
Originally posted by EladarThere is no miraculous evidence available for scientific scrutiny. The only evidence is in the Bible, the miracles all involve things that are impossible so science would tend to say they are either exaggerated or didn't happen. In the event that they did happen they left no evidence so there isn't anything to analyse.
I see that you are unwilling to discuss the aspects of miracles which I have tried to discuss. It would require you to reevaluate your position and I understand why you would really just rather ignore it.
Cheers.
As far as the creation is concerned if the universe is young it has been created with objects 13 billion light years away and the light from them in flight. In fact it would mean a deliberate attempt to disguise the recent creation had been made. From a scientific point of view we may as well assume the universe is old and proceed accordingly. From a theological point of view that is a problem because you have God as perfect but indulging in a cosmological lie. It is far simpler to not take the early books of the Bible literally than have to explain why God should deliberately try to make a young universe look old.
04 Nov 14
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI never said there was miraculous evidence.
There is no miraculous evidence available for scientific scrutiny. The only evidence is in the Bible, the miracles all involve things that are impossible so science would tend to say they are either exaggerated or didn't happen. In the event that they did happen they left no evidence so there isn't anything to analyse.
As far as the creation is conc ...[text shortened]... iterally than have to explain why God should deliberately try to make a young universe look old.
I said assuming the miraculous happened, how would science judge it? You don't seem to want to enter the discussion, so why bother trying to change the subject?
04 Nov 14
4 edits
Originally posted by Eladar
I never said there was miraculous evidence.
I said assuming the miraculous happened, how would science judge it? You don't seem to want to enter the discussion, so why bother trying to change the subject?
I said assuming the miraculous happened, how would science judge it?
That depends on exactly what you mean by “miraculous”.
If what you mean by that is either “impossible” or “cannot possibly be explained rationally” then the answer would be that science will rightly dismiss it as either as a hoax or an illusion or as a case that there is something wrong with the data/observation or the interpretation of it (and the "miraculous" couldn't happen almost by definition of "miraculous"! )
If what you mean by that is merely “highly improbable” then, well, it is a mathematical certainty that the improbable, even the highly improbable, must sometimes happen! So something highly improbable happening wouldn't present a problem for science for the science of mathematics says, given enough time, it must always happen eventually.
incidentally, there is no evidence that 'miracles' (as in 'impossible' rather than merely the 'improbable' ) have ever happened -just hearsay by the gullible, delusional or dishonest that it has which doesn't count as real evidence.
04 Nov 14
Originally posted by Eladarwell then, show me a miracle in the here and now, let some deity turn water into wine TODAY and we can start talking. Till then, you are rattling bones.
You mean making the observation about the limits of science when it comes to understanding the human condition? Sure, that's appropriate for this forum.
04 Nov 14
Originally posted by sonhouseWhy should I show you a miracle today? Am I God?
well then, show me a miracle in the here and now, let some deity turn water into wine TODAY and we can start talking. Till then, you are rattling bones.
Am I asking you to believe as I do? No.
Why do you feel the need for me to conform to your beliefs? If you believe in freedom, then I'd think you'd allow people to believe differently than you.
As I said, my post was aimed at a person who claims to believe in miracles. I can see that claim was a lie.