- Joined
- 21 Apr 06
- Moves
- 4211
1 edit
Originally posted by zebanoTo add a bit more.....blacks pieces slide effortlessly onto good squares, Ra8,Rb8.....the queen on c7 b6 or a5 and the bishop on g7 giving black massive pressure down the queenside, white is almost always on the defensive at the start of the Benko. Black should seek to trade off the knights if he/she can manage this then whites position should fall apart in a hurry. ie Nf6,Ng4,Ne5 for the Nf3 knight and Nd7,Nb6,Na4 for the c3 knight.....of course a good white player isnt just going to sit around and let this happen but if black can pull it off then its almost always enough for an advantage.
1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 c5
3. d5 b5
4. cxb5 a6
cxb5 is almost always played and then the a6 "gambited pawn" can be declined in many ways. The following one of the accepted variations...
5. bxa6 g6
6. Nc3 Bxa6
7. e4 Bxf1 (white can also play g3 here and castle after fianchettoing his bishop which is currently the more popular treatement)
8. Kxf1 Bg7
9. ...[text shortened]... defense, even at the grandmaster level and it allows you to quickly strike back in the center.
Originally posted by exigentskyIt is silly to judge a move, particularly the second move of a game by how it scores on a database.
Yes, of course I have. But, I am limiting the choices to the Bogo/Nimzo and Pirc openings because these are the ones I am willing to consider.
BTW: IMO, the Pirc is better than the King's Indian anyway. According to my databse, d6 scores best against d4 with 47% and the players using it are also rated higher than for any other response.
I see this all of the time. People defending or attacking and also playing lines based on a winning percentage from a database.
Depending on the database, it could include a lot of weaker players. It will include a lot of older games that may have followed an older line.
According to Chessgames.com, the Evans Gambit wins 55% of the time. The Ruy Lopez wins only 36% of the time.
Does this mean that the Evans Gambit is a better opening than the Ruy Lopez?
As a first move for white, e4 wins 37.1% of the time. g4 wins 62% of the time. Does that mean that g4 is a better first move for white than e4?
1 edit
I don't wanna turn this into a flamefest, because I really don't care that much, but was the poster so vague as to ellicit responses like "I play 1..e6" or "The Benko Gambit is the best response to 1.d4"? Neither give their opinion of 1..d6 or the Nimzo/Bogo Complex, which I think is pretty clearly stated in the OP, and not vague at all sir. Touche. 😀
Originally posted by !~TONY~!Except that I did give my opinion of the nimzo/bogo...
I don't wanna turn this into a flamefest, because I really don't care that much, but was the poster so vague as to ellicit responses like "I play 1..e6" or "The Benko Gambit is the best response to 1.d4"? Neither give their opinion of 1..d6 or the Nimzo/Bogo Complex, which I think is pretty clearly stated in the OP, and not vague at all sir. Touche. 😀
Originally posted by !~TONY~!My apologies... but considering I don't play the two, its the least bit of input I can offer.
I love that when anyone posts a question about responding to a move, some people always just write what they play(it's worse if it's not even the topic of the post), which clearly doesn't help the poster with the intial problem at all.
Originally posted by zebanoMuch obliged
1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 c5
3. d5 b5
4. cxb5 a6
cxb5 is almost always played and then the a6 "gambited pawn" can be declined in many ways. The following one of the accepted variations...
5. bxa6 g6
6. Nc3 Bxa6
7. e4 Bxf1 (white can also play g3 here and castle after fianchettoing his bishop which is currently the more popular treatement)
8. Kxf1 Bg7
9. ...[text shortened]... defense, even at the grandmaster level and it allows you to quickly strike back in the center.
I like 1....e6
For many reasons.
1) I do play the french so if the response comes 2. e4 I'm a happy bunny
2) Its an extremely flexible response. It allows the nimzo/bogo/queens indian. It will also allow some transposition into the benoni.
3) Most of all - I play the classical dutch. It prevents a lot of the anti-Dutch second move responses. f5 comes as the second black move.
1 edit
Originally posted by !~TONY~!To be honest I think he was a bit vague. I didn't realise he was asking which line he should play. The thread title said "the best response to 1. d4", so obviously people are going to say what they like doing...
I don't wanna turn this into a flamefest, because I really don't care that much, but was the poster so vague as to ellicit responses like "I play 1..e6" or "The Benko Gambit is the best response to 1.d4"? Neither give their opinion of 1..d6 or the Nimzo/Bogo Complex, which I think is pretty clearly stated in the OP, and not vague at all sir. Touche. 😀
I like the Dutch via 1. d4 f5, but 1. d4 e6 2. c4 f5 if you don't mind the French like Tengu above is a good way of avoiding things like the Staunton Gambit or 2. Bg5. This means that Tengu more or less always gets a position he feels at home in. Although I'll grant you this doesn't resolve exigentsky's basic dilemma, people's reasons for choosing one line over another can help your decision making even if the lines aren't that closely related.
After 1. d4 d6 exigentsky risks getting into a King's Indian, which personally I wouldn't mind but it's not everyone's cup of tea, and can't escape into a Nimzo-Indian as he's pushed the wrong pawn. After 1. d4 Nf6 white is going to play 2. c4 in all likelyhood so the Pirc is possible (after 2. Nc3) but pretty unlikely. After 1. d4 d6 2. c4 the options are K's Indian, Old Indian (KI without the fianchetto), Dutch Leningrad, or the Benoni (if there's a playable transposition). Frankly if he doesn't like the King's Indian I doubt if he'll like any of the others, also the Pirc isn't that dissimilar from the KI. On that basis he should look at the Nimzo/Bogo defences after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 and can try for the Pirc if white plays 2. Nc3, but will also have to cope with stuff like the Catalan and 2. Bg5.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtthen you always castle on fianchetto , isnt it ?
To be honest I think he was a bit vague. I didn't realise he was asking which line he should play. The thread title said "the best response to 1. d4", so obviously people are going to say what they like doing...
I like the Dutch via 1. d4 f5, but 1. d4 e6 2. c4 f5 if you don't mind the French like Tengu above is a good way of avoiding things like th ...[text shortened]... 2. Nc3, but will also have to cope with stuff like the Catalan and 2. Bg5.
I try to do the same , and its interesting because Seyrawan promotes this on his opening books too !
then if 1. e4 I use Pirc or Sicilian Dragon Variation
if 1. d4 King Indian Defense or Dutch Leningrad Variation, etc
After 1.d4 d6 2.c4 is a mistake due to 2...e5! when 3.dxe5 dxe5 4.Qxd8+ Kxd8 leads to an ending that is at least equal for black, mainly due to white's inactive light-squared bishop (black will play ...c6 when/if white fianchettos). Therefore 1.d4 players who are looking to avoid the pirc should prefer 2.Nf3, when Black can either transpose into a KID with Nf6, g6, Bg7, and 0-0, or play 2...Bg4!? with an interesting game.
Considering few of your opponents will know about this positional trap, i would give 1...d6 a try, especially if you are comfortable in the pirc after 2.e4
Originally posted by peter62A bit of an exagerration ! After 1...d6 , 2.c4 is not a mistake if you know what you're doing (which most people otb won't. but correspondence chess is a different matter of course because of access to databases)
After 1.d4 d6 2.c4 is a mistake due to 2...e5! when 3.dxe5 dxe5 4.Qxd8+ Kxd8 leads to an ending that is at least equal for black, mainly due to white's inactive light-squared bishop (black will play ...c6 when/if white fianchettos). Therefore 1.d4 players who are looking to avoid the pirc should prefer 2.Nf3, when Black can either transpose into a KID with N ...[text shortened]... ional trap, i would give 1...d6 a try, especially if you are comfortable in the pirc after 2.e4
after 2...e5, white is of course not forced to play dxe5. 3.Nf3 is still sensible (though after 3...e4 it gets much sharper than when white quietly plays Nf3 on the second move as peters recommends)
But i agree, 1...d6 is clearly the best choice for you, since you play the pirc.
Besides you don't want to learn the huge amount of theory of the nimzo/bogo-indian complex!
If you want to know more about 1...d6 i recommend that you have a look at this excellent book :
http://www.amazon.fr/Explosive-Chess-Opening-Repertoire-Black/dp/1901983501
(only problem : it's a bit old -2001 - but i don't think theory changes a lot in this opening)
And as rednight said: don't rely too much on database statistics!
Originally posted by peter62As the previous poster above mine stated and I will agree. 1. d4 d6 2. c4 is what I always play and it is not even close to being a mistake. It is a very good opening move.
After 1.d4 d6 2.c4 is a mistake due to 2...e5! when 3.dxe5 dxe5 4.Qxd8+ Kxd8 leads to an ending that is at least equal for black, mainly due to white's inactive light-squared bishop (black will play ...c6 when/if white fianchettos). Therefore 1.d4 players who are looking to avoid the pirc should prefer 2.Nf3, when Black can either transpose into a KID with N ...[text shortened]... ional trap, i would give 1...d6 a try, especially if you are comfortable in the pirc after 2.e4
Originally posted by whiteknight26I don't think there's anything objectively wrong with 2. c4. But there IS something wrong with it relative to the requirements set out by the OP. He ONLY wants to play the Pirc, and unfortunately, it's just not possible to guarantee one just by playing 1...d6.
As the previous poster above mine stated and I will agree. 1. d4 d6 2. c4 is what I always play and it is not even close to being a mistake. It is a very good opening move.
After 2. c4, you've got to either play 2...e5, allow a KID, or go for some alternative solution. A Pirc is impossible. Likewise, after 1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. f3, he can be move ordered into a KID.
All that said, if the goal is to play AS MANY of your selected defense as possible, according to RHP games explorer, 1. d4 d6 draws 2. c4 almost equal in amount to 2. e4. So you'll get your Pirc about half the time. After 1...Nf6, you rate to get either a Nimzo or Bogo at least 3 out of 4. Over 90% of the time when white plays 2. c4 (which is most of the time), and about half the time when he plays 2. Nf3.