Immortality and the human condition

Human beings in cultures everywhere, right down through human history, dreaming and hoping that they might have everlasting life... it says more about the reality of the human condition than it does about the reality of the universe.

Thoughts?

@fmf said
Human beings in cultures everywhere, right down through human history, dreaming and hoping that they might have everlasting life... it says more about the reality of the human condition than it does about the reality of the universe.

Thoughts?

How do you know what the reality of the universe is?

@pb1022 said
How do you know what the reality of the universe is?

Personally, because it's not my field, I know relatively little about it. But I don't think my knowledge, such as it is, is going to be altered or augmented by sifting through the aspirations of humans regarding the notion of everlasting life.

@fmf said
Personally, because it's not my field, I know relatively little about it. But I don't think my knowledge, such as it is, is going to be altered or augmented by sifting through the aspirations of humans regarding the notion of everlasting life.

Even if it were your (or anyone else’s) field, I think you or they would know little about it.

But I think if you find someone in history who can credibly speak on the subject and demonstrates his credibility, that’s your best bet for knowing about the reality of the universe and the truthfulness of everlasting life.

@pb1022 said
Even if it were your (or anyone else’s) field, I think you or they would know little about it.

But I think if you find someone in history who can credibly speak on the subject and demonstrates his credibility, that’s your best bet for knowing about the reality of the universe and the truthfulness of everlasting life.

Not being a theist, I personally don't believe that theology tells us anything credible about the universe or about a creator entity, if there is one. I think theology is merely a reflection and product of the human condition.

@fmf said
Not being a theist, I personally don't believe that theology tells us anything credible about the universe or about a creator entity, if there is one. I think theology is merely a reflection and product of the human condition.

Do you deny Jesus Christ existed?

@pb1022 said
Do you deny Jesus Christ existed?

He probably did. I am fully aware of the cult of personality that was carefully constructed around him, piggy-backing on Judaism, in the decades after his death. And the result - Christianity - has been hugely successful, clearly, and I'd say this is down to the relatively simple core golden-rule-type message and the way it appeals to the hopes of its adherents that they will go on to enjoy everlasting life.

@fmf said
He probably did. I am fully aware of the cult of personality that was carefully constructed around him, piggy-backing on Judaism, in the decades after his death. And the result - Christianity - has been hugely successful, clearly, and I'd say this is down to the relatively simple core golden-rule-type message and the way it appeals to the hopes of its adherents that they will go on to enjoy everlasting life.

So you think He existed but He wasn’t who He said He was and the miracles He performed were invented/fabricated?

The reason I’m asking is He spoke on the reality of the universe and on everlasting life. So if you deem Him credible, then those questions are answered, at least to a great extent. If you deem him not credible, they’re not answered (to any extent.)

But I don’t think you can separate some of His teachings from the rest of His teachings and say He’s credible in this area but not in that area.

@pb1022 said
So you think He existed but He wasn’t who He said He was and the miracles He performed were invented/fabricated?

As I said, I am aware of what was claimed about him by various writers who were carefully constructing a religion in the decades after his death.

@pb1022 said
But I don’t think you can separate some of His teachings from the rest of His teachings and say He’s credible in this area but not in that area.

“In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” is a persuasive rule to apply in life regardless of who thought of it. The ability versus inability to apply it is one of the major wrestling matches that forms part of the human condition.

@fmf said
As I said, I am aware of what was claimed about him by various writers who were carefully constructing a religion in the decades after his death.

So you think the quotes and actions attributed to Him were fabricated? Or at least the quotes pertaining to His identity and where He came from, etc. and all the actions that would be considered miracles. You believe those were fabricated but not His statements and actions that did not involve the supernatural?

The reason I’m asking is a fairly famous person (think it was C.S. Lewis) said people only had three options when it came to determining who Jesus Christ was: He was either crazy, a liar or the Son of God.

But you seem to have found a fourth option: A good teacher and wise man whose statements and actions involving the supernatural were all fabricated by writers after His death.

Is that a fair assessment of your position?

@fmf said
“In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” is a persuasive rule to apply in life regardless of who thought of it. The ability versus inability to apply it is one of the major wrestling matches that forms part of the human condition.

Yes, and one that can be twisted.

If I did something bad toward someone, I would expect them to do something bad to me in return.

Therefore if someone does something bad to me, I could justify doing something bad to them.

The much more challenging teaching is to love your enemies and not repay evil with evil but overcome evil with good.

@pb1022 said
So you think the quotes and actions attributed to Him were fabricated? Or at least the quotes pertaining to His identity and where He came from, etc. and all the actions that would be considered miracles. You believe those were fabricated but not His statements and actions that did not involve the supernatural?

I think everything attributed to him was written by people decades after his death. Many of them were probably sincere.

@pb1022 said
But you seem to have found a fourth option: A good teacher and wise man whose statements and actions involving the supernatural were all fabricated by writers after His death.

Is that a fair assessment of your position?

As I said, a principle like “...in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” is persuasive regardless of who thought of it.

@pb1022 said
The much more challenging teaching is to love your enemies and not repay evil with evil but overcome evil with good.

Yes, another persuasive "rule" that overlaps quite a bit with the one I cited above.