@kevcvs57 said===Are you saying European Jews did not colonise Palestine?===
“ The far right's canards about Jewish influence and media corrupting the western world is far less malignant than the far left's screeches that Jews are genocidal colonialists.”
Probably seems more malignant because a rational person might see some merit in the 2nd claim whereas only a diehard antisemitic lunatic would base their opinion of the Jewish people on the Ist cl ...[text shortened]... if the idf has to kill 2 million gazans in order to destroy Hamas? Can we talk about genocide then?
Nobody colonized "Palestine." "Palestine" was never a sovereign entity. It was governed by the Turks, and later the British, who either allowed or did not stop European Jews from moving in. There were always significant (discriminated against) Jewish settlements in the area as well, of course. The last sovereign to govern "Palestine" was the Jewish kingdom that was sacked by the Romans about 1950 years ago.
Moreover, "colonizations" have been the manner in which almost all people got to where they are. Whether the Turks or British were justified or not in allowing European Jews to settle in Palestine is an exceptionally irrelevant question, especially since a large percentage of Israelis were forcibly expelled from Arab countries.
===What if the idf has to kill 2 million gazans in order to destroy Hamas? Can we talk about genocide then?===
Yes, if they kill 2 million Gazans, then we can talk about Genocide. Or at least we can wait until at least one of the following two things happen before we start talking about "Genocide":
1. The Gaza population shows something other than significant population growth over, say, a year.
2. Israel does to Gaza something that approaches the ankles of what we did to Hamburg or Dresden during World War II.
@mott-the-hoople saidI hope you're right. But I don't know. Decades of wokist support of the idea that any successful group is an exploiter of the underprivileged may have created a class of people who really think the reasons their societies suck is that Jews have stolen their money and jobs, and a class of liberal rich whites who find it convenient to scapegoat the Jews.
what you are seeing for the most part is george soros funded agitators.
Unfortunately, I've seen the movie before.
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@sh76 saidDo you really think these folks are anti semites? They're kids, born in 2007, looking at the 30:1 kill ratio in this war and wondering why Israel needs to use US-purchased weapons on unarmed civilians.
Thank you. I appreciate the conciliatory tone.
This has nothing to do with Trump or Biden, but I have to tell you that what's going on in college campuses is f-in scary. From what I've seen on these videos, these protests are about 60% against Israel and 40% against Jews.
They obviously don't understand the nuance of the situation, the long history of the conflict, the extreme terrorism along a Palestinian minority.
But they are not antisemites unless they were raised in an antisemitic house. They're too young. Most of these goons are just happy to skip out in class and ignore the tuition bill for a few days.
https://twitter.com/loffredojeremy/status/1783651274975523285
https://twitter.com/thrasherxy/status/1783594696733762016
@wildgrass saidThe kids who are marching are probably just doing it because it's the cool and in thing to do.
Do you really think these folks are anti semites? They're kids, born in 2007, looking at the 30:1 kill ratio in this war and wondering why Israel needs to use US-purchased weapons on unarmed civilians.
They obviously don't understand the nuance of the situation, the long history of the conflict, the extreme terrorism along a Palestinian minority.
But they are not anti ...[text shortened]... ffredojeremy/status/1783651274975523285
https://twitter.com/thrasherxy/status/1783594696733762016
"These goons are just happy to skip out in class and ignore the tuition bill for a few days" sounds about right for most of them.
On the other hand, the organizers and leaders of many of these protests are rabid anti-Semites.
How can you tell the difference between protesting Israel and Jew-hater? It's simpler than you think:
Protesting Israel:
"Cease fire now!"
"Justice for Palestine"
"Stop the war in Gaza"
Jew-hatred:
- Arrow pointing at Jews with sign that says “Al Qasam's next targets”
- “We're all Hamas”
- Forming a human chain to block the guy in the Yarmulka who wasn't wearing anything "Israeli" but merely looked Jewish
I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.
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@sh76 saidYeah. Who are the organizers?
The kids who are marching are probably just doing it because it's the cool and in thing to do.
"These goons are just happy to skip out in class and ignore the tuition bill for a few days" sounds about right for most of them.
On the other hand, the organizers and leaders of many of these protests are rabid anti-Semites.
How can you tell the difference between protesting ...[text shortened]... earing anything "Israeli" but merely looked Jewish
I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.
Protest should be allowed. As much as I disagree, people who like Hamas should not be arrested for protesting or saying that.
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@sh76 saidHere's some "anti-semitic hate speech" from The Jewish Voice for Peace, one of the organizers of the Columbia protest:
Free speech? Are you serious?
Jackbooted thugs are literally stopping Jews from moving through the campus because they are Jews (https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1782278428466565433) and terrorizing people to the extent that they are terrified to go to class (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/columbia-hold-classes-virtually-jewish-leaders-warn-safety-palestinian-rcn ...[text shortened]... about open discrimination that you would NEVER tolerate if it were against a favored minority group.
"For the past six months, the University of Columbia and Barnard College have created a climate of repression and harm for students peacefully protesting for an end of the Israeli genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. Students have faced attacks to their physical safety while on campus, endured public doxxing in the media, and are exposed to hate speech by faculty and staff. Columbia University has actively created a hostile environment for students who are Palestinian or who support Palestinian freedom. Additionally, the administration’s actions have made the campus much less safe for Jewish students.
We condemn any and all hateful or violent comments targeting Jewish students; however, in shutting down public protest and suspending students, the actions of the University of Columbia are not ensuring safety for Jewish students — or any students — on campus.
Instead of listening to the calls of Columbia and Barnard students to divest from the genocide perpetrated by the Israeli government, the university has called in the NYPD to arrest students, suspend them and even expel them. At present 85 students, 15 of whom are Jewish, are suspended.
Yesterday’s statement by the White House, like the administrators of Columbia University, dangerously and inaccurately presumes that all Jewish students support the Israeli government’s genocide of Palestinians. This assumption is actively harming Palestinian and Jewish students.
The administration has not only harassed Jewish students and failed to ensure their safety and well-being, it has also obstructed their religious observances during Shabbat and prevented them from accessing their Jewish community on the eve of Passover.
Jewish students at Columbia and Barnard have been evicted, suspended, and faced police brutality. In doing so, the administration has prevented these Jewish students from practicing their religion:
Last Friday, on the eve of Shabbat, when Jewish scripture encourages Jews to gather in homes and in community to pray and welcome the sabbath, the university instead forced Jewish students from their homes on campus, denying them a safe place to worship or gather with their community.
Some of these Jewish students also observe shomer shabbat, abjuring all electronics during the sabbath. Last Friday, they were forced to break with their religious observances in order to comply with the administration’s urgent email communications.
Moreover, the university has allowed members of its faculty and staff to harass these students, including continuous hate speech and incitement from professor Shai Davidai.
Finally, the university has prevented expelled Jewish students from participating in their community’s Shabbat and Havdalah rituals on campus; for Passover, students are attempting to gather off-campus in order to be able to gather in community.
We call on the administrations of Columbia and Barnard University to issue an immediate amnesty to all suspended and expelled students, to adhere to their demands for divestment from the Israeli government’s genocide, and to protect all students, including ensuring that Jewish students can safely practice all aspects of their Judaism in community on campus."
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2024/04/22/statement-24-04-22/
OMG, better sic the troops on these fanatics pronto.
What's really going on is a feckless University administrator is bowing to right wing political pressure, similar to that which forced out two University Presidents for not endorsing repressive measures like suspensions for students using speech politicians mischaracterized at prior protests.
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@sh76 saidA right wing fairy tale you have gullibly swallowed:
Free speech? Are you serious?
Jackbooted thugs are literally stopping Jews from moving through the campus because they are Jews (https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1782278428466565433) and terrorizing people to the extent that they are terrified to go to class (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/columbia-hold-classes-virtually-jewish-leaders-warn-safety-palestinian-rcn ...[text shortened]... about open discrimination that you would NEVER tolerate if it were against a favored minority group.
"In his remarks at Columbia, Johnson painted the campus as a violent hellscape overrun by “lawless agitators” who “attack our innocent Jewish students.” But Johnson’s portrayal of a violent environment doesn’t match the reality documented by NBC News reporter Antonia Hylton, who wrote about her time on campus last week: “Our team spent long hours reporting on and around Columbia’s campus on Thursday & Friday. … I didn’t see a single instance of violence or aggression on the lawn or at the student encampment. The student-led protest was peaceful and often very quiet.” Hylton added that “the only moments of conflict or aggression I witnessed took place beyond the gates,” where nonstudent demonstrators gathered. Hylton’s account of a generally peaceful environment on campus tracks with other news accounts, as well as descriptions of peaceful protest from Columbia University faculty and the Columbia Law School Human Rights Institute.
Despite the prevalence of calm, Columbia University last week called in the NYPD to disperse the protesters, and over 100 were arrested. The NYPD reported no violence at the encampments, and NYPD Chief of Patrol John Chell said, “The students that were arrested were peaceful, offered no resistance whatsoever, and were saying what they wanted to say in a peaceful manner.”
A reasonable person would take stock of this situation and realize that the protests are a university matter. Moreover, a reasonable person would note that Columbia — as well as many other colleges around the country where similar encampments have sprung up in recent weeks — has already deployed extreme and excessive force by calling in police to arrest peaceful protesters. These police raids at various campuses have resulted in the tasing of protesters, mass arrests of students and brutal detainment of faculty. The administrators of the ostensibly liberal bastion of academia have revealed their own illiberal and domineering tendencies when it comes to protests on this issue."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-real-reason-republicans-are-calling-for-the-national-guard-to-repress-protesters/ar-AA1nJU2T?ocid=winp2fptaskbar&cvid=8a381f945ba144e7ae3e4eee8819f01b&ei=30
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@mott-the-hoople saidYou say it's fine and good to be a hypocrite because hypocrites exist.
its ok if you do it...gotcha
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@sh76 saidlol so because Palestine and the people that lived were the eternal victim of imperil geopolitics and strategic map making they didn’t exist when they weren’t ethnically cleansed and displaced byUS supported and armed European jewss
===Are you saying European Jews did not colonise Palestine?===
Nobody colonized "Palestine." "Palestine" was never a sovereign entity. It was governed by the Turks, and later the British, who either allowed or did not stop European Jews from moving in. There were always significant (discriminated against) Jewish settlements in the area as well, of course. The last sovereign ...[text shortened]... Gaza something that approaches the ankles of what we did to Hamburg or Dresden during World War II.
Uh ok.
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@kevcvs57 saidIs your remedy that everyone that was ever ethnically cleansed any number of generations ago has the right to go back to their ancestral homes?
lol so because Palestine and the people that lived were the eternal victim of imperil geopolitics and strategic map making they didn’t exist when they weren’t ethnically cleansed and displaced byUS supported and armed European jewss
Uh ok.
I hope they've been keeping my grandfather's flat in Berlin tidy for me. I'm sure that will increase the sales price.
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@sh76 saidNo. But the Palestinians are being denied their political rights NOW. That has to stop immediately. One-state or two-state - whatever. "No State" has to stop instantly.
Is your remedy that everyone that was ever ethnically cleansed any number of generations ago has the right to go back to their ancestral homes?
I hope they've been keeping my grandfather's flat in Berlin tidy for me. I'm sure that will increase the sales price.
As for ethnic cleansing, that was never right, and much of it can't always be unwound, but we can't let it CONTINUE. The Israelis want to continue ethnic cleansing by settling the West Bank and are now are trying to wipe out Gaza. Presumably they want that land, too.
I have no idea about your grandfather's apartment but I can tell you for 100% certain that it is not a Palestinian who is keeping you from getting justice over it.
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@sh76 saidBTW, isn't this exactly the Israeli claim: "We were ethnically cleansed 2000 years ago, and we want our land back"?
Is your remedy that everyone that was ever ethnically cleansed any number of generations ago has the right to go back to their ancestral homes?
If that's justifiable, why can't the Palestinians say: "We were ethnically cleansed 70 years ago, and we want our land back."
It makes no logical sense to allow one claim and not the other - if anything the most recent claim has FAR more weight to it.
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@spruce112358 saidNow there's an interesting debate.
BTW, isn't this exactly the Israeli claim: "We were ethnically cleansed 2000 years ago, and we want our land back"?
If that's justifiable, why can't the Palestinians say: "We were ethnically cleansed 70 years ago, and we want our land back."
It makes no logical sense to allow one claim and not the other - if anything the most recent claim has FAR more weight to it.
Under what conditions does it become immoral for a conquered people to keep violently resisting? At some point the permanence of the new situation becomes a fait accompli, and further bloodshed becomes pointless and immoral. I think most would agree (maybe not no1marauder) that is the case for Native Americans in the US, for example. Thoughts anyone?