Insurers and free speech

Originally posted by telerion
I wasn't sure if an insurance company had some legal responsibility not to lie to its customers (assuming that they are). I'm sure there's a lot of grey area between opine and lie.

I think the President has the only legal authority to lie.

Originally posted by whodey
I think the President has the only legal authority to lie.

Yeah we should get rid of the office. Would that suit you? how about no congress either? Tell me please, what in the hell do you want except to constantly complain?

Originally posted by badmoon
Yeah we should get rid of the office. Would that suit you? how about no congress either? Tell me please, what in the hell do you want except to constantly complain?

Sorry, I just don't like being lied to. In fact, I help pay their salaries, so yes, I feel the need to complain when they lie to me and then try and take over my health insurance so they, and they alone, can determine if what my doctor wants to do is "OK". Of course, badmoon translates this as, "Destroy govumit, destroy govumit!!" while at the same time Obama refers to people like me as antigovumit. Well, everyone needs a label I suppose. In fact, I'm kinda a glass half full kinda guy. At least its better than being labeled a racist.

The truth of the matter is, we need true tansparancy in government and need true reform. Of course, not until a Republican gets in office, eh?

Originally posted by sh76
Okay; let's assume for the sake of argument that the insurers are lying about the healthcare bill. I'm not saying they are, but let's assume.

What IS the Obama administration supposed to do? Are they not allowed to fight back? Is it completely a one-way street? Companies and groups can say anything they like about the White House, but the White House can't s ...[text shortened]... As long as it's just talk, let both sides say whatever they think will convince the voters.

I would like to add something here. Obama has lied repeatidly about health care related issues. For example, he said that amputations costs about $30 thousand when it was no where close to that and also imlied doctors don't always see the medical need to do them, rather, they do them for profit at times, which is another lie altogether because they really are not that expensive. Then he says that illegals will not be covered in front of the entire world watching and then scratches his head when someone yells, "LIAR!" Of course, if he was not lying, where is the Congressional plan to see to it that illegals are not covered? Of course, none exist. THey then scurried around like little roaches trying to come up with a plan after Obama said that. Then Obama says that perhaps someone could take a few pills rather than have a procedure under his plan, his own words, but then turns around and says that health care benefits will not be diminished. Well how are we to translate what he just said about a change in treatment options under his plan? Then he tallies the numbers of his plan and says how much money will be saved in his new system only to have an independent Congressional body tally the same numbers and say that Obama's numbers just don't add up. All I can say is, he has a lot of nerve turuning around and saying these insurance companies are lying when they say their coverage will change. Who the @!!@ knows what this new legislation will bring? In fact, there is NO way for him to prove that the insurance companies are lying simply because I think at times it perplexes him as to what this bohemouth entitlement policy will actually pan out to be.

My last retort on the subject is, you mention who will fight back when insurance companies lie to us. Well we have the govumit. Right now you have the insurance companies all sitting around a table as Obama walks around it with a baseball bat in hand asking, "Who's on my team?" However, who fights back when the govumit lies to us? In fact, that is what is scary about these guys, there is NO accountability. So in the interim, lest just hand them the entire health care industry, shall we?

Originally posted by whodey
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090922/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_medicare_6

"Republican lawmakers rebuked the Obama administration Tuesday for telling health insurance companies to stop warning elderly customers they will lose benefits in health care legislation, which some equated as a gag order."

So the quesiton is this, should insurers be censored rega ...[text shortened]... ng to be bullied into silence if they are deemed opponents of the "progressive movement"?

I think the insurers should have the legal right to say what they want, free speech, as you said. 1st amendment rights! The government ought not to stifle free speech. They should be able to say what they want to insurer's customers about their views on the point, but not be telling insurer not to speak freely. How would it be balanced or first-amendment compliant for the president to tell insurers what not to say? it may not be officially "illegal" to just talk, but it certainly goes against the spirit of free speech, and is more of a moral wrong than a broken law. A president telling an independent groups from making lawfully protected political statements to shut up and stop saying things... is simply immoral.


That said, I cannot avoid my point that harping on undocumented immigrants like Joe Wilson did is short-term pandering and bad for the republican party in the long-term, which is why the leadership could their their internal member to shut up or else (notice it wasn't like the republican politicians were telling their political opponents in the non-government world to shut up, just their internal member)... it's bad for the party. because so many americans citizen voters are directly related to immigrants or have immigrants roots (all growing population due to aging of a younger generation that happens to be more diverse as the baby-boomer age and the world globalizes) will grow in the coming decades.

In summary, the republicans can tell joe wilson to shut up because he's screwing over the party that he joined and it will be long-term damage and its voluntary membership & support. However, the president cannot morally tell non-politically affiliated opponents of a bill that they'd better shut up, as he hold great politically power entrusted to politicians who know the constitution and know they are not supposed to stifle free speech for political reasons.

In what way has the free speech of the insurance companies actually been stifled?

Does widely disseminated disinformation about "Death Panels" - to quote just one example from many - stifle informed debate?

Originally posted by FMF
In what way has the free speech of the insurance companies actually been stifled?

Does widely disseminated disinformation about "Death Panels" - to quote just one example from many - stifle informed debate?

Did I say anything about death panels? Did the insurance companies say anything about death panels? Please stay on topic.

So if the President of your country told you to shut up, how would you feel? In fact, what if you felt you were telling the truth?

Originally posted by eljefejesus
In summary, the republicans can tell joe wilson to shut up because he's screwing over the party that he joined and it will be long-term damage and its voluntary membership & support. However, the president cannot morally tell non-politically affiliated opponents of a bill that they'd better shut up, as he hold great politically power entrusted to politici ...[text shortened]... w the constitution and know they are not supposed to stifle free speech for political reasons.[/b]

Whether Obama should or should not have done so is irrelavent, because he already has done so. The question now is, what will the fall out be if anything?

As for Joe Wilson, are you upset he made the outburst when he did or simply that he was offended at Obama lying about covering illegal immigrants? You seem to favor covering illegal immigrants, so I suppose you favor Obama's position. Having said that, do you also favor Obama lying about them being covered simply to pass the legislation because he knew that the general public would be upset with them being covered? In fact, both parties know that the whole illegal immigrant issue is a touchy one with the American public. That is why they need to tackle the issue of illegal immigration rather than ignoring the laws on the books. It makes them look like a bunch of spinless dopes.

Originally posted by whodey
Did the insurance companies say anything about death panels?

Presumably. Yes.

Originally posted by sh76
Okay; let's assume for the sake of argument that the insurers are lying about the healthcare bill. I'm not saying they are, but let's assume.

What IS the Obama administration supposed to do? Are they not allowed to fight back? Is it completely a one-way street? Companies and groups can say anything they like about the White House, but the White House can't s ...[text shortened]... As long as it's just talk, let both sides say whatever they think will convince the voters.

How about just the fear of government retaliation? If it can be proven in any way the government has victimised or retaliated against a citezen wrongly in the past, would that make a difference?

Originally posted by whodey
I would like to add something here. Obama has lied repeatidly about health care related issues. For example, he said that amputations costs about $30 thousand when it was no where close to that and also imlied doctors don't always see the medical need to do them, rather, they do them for profit at times, which is another lie altogether because they really a lity. So in the interim, lest just hand them the entire health care industry, shall we?

In fact, there is NO way for him to prove that the insurance companies are lying simply because I think at times it perplexes him as to what this bohemouth entitlement policy will actually pan out to be.

I think this is the root of the matter. Our current healthcare system is a complex mess that would probably have stumped Einstein. And any effort to fix it will be equally hard to comprehend.

Anyone who claims to really know what a given program is going to do or cost is most definitely a liar. But I can't imagine any politician getting up and saying "We have no idea what's going on - so we have to just make a good guess and hope it all works out" (this would also apply to those opposing reforms). But that's what we're all doing. Guessing.

Originally posted by telerion
I wasn't sure if an insurance company had some legal responsibility not to lie to its customers (assuming that they are). I'm sure there's a lot of grey area between opine and lie.

Well, I suppose they could be sued for fraud of some version of false advertising if they lie to customers and customers rely on the lies to their detriment. I don't think there's a criminal issue, however.

Originally posted by whodey
Sorry, I just don't like being lied to. In fact, I help pay their salaries, so yes, I feel the need to complain when they lie to me and then try and take over my health insurance so they, and they alone, can determine if what my doctor wants to do is "OK". Of course, badmoon translates this as, "Destroy govumit, destroy govumit!!" while at the same time Oba in government and need true reform. Of course, not until a Republican gets in office, eh?

That's fine. You seem like an intelligent fellow. I'd just like to to see you offer other solutions.

One thing, as an inetlligent person you should really know that republicans or democrats - neither party holds the patent on honesty.

I do really believe that you are ill advised as to your views on the health care debate. And of course the current insurance system already dictates what is ok or not. Don't drink the insurance kool-aid so robustly they are purely and only motivated by profit, not patient well being.

Originally posted by sh76
Well, I suppose they could be sued for fraud of some version of false advertising if they lie to customers and customers rely on the lies to their detriment. I don't think there's a criminal issue, however.

Just think, if the federal government sues the insurance companies for "lying" and then the government takes over the insurance companies later on, then perhaps we can sue the government into oblivion as well for their lies about their health care promises. You know, you have to be careful how you treat other people because it has a tendency to come full circle.

Originally posted by badmoon

One thing, as an inetlligent person you should really know that republicans or democrats - neither party holds the patent on honesty.

No kidding.