Hamas Charter 2017

@spruce112358 said
Oh wow. I had to look that up. 'Nakba Denial' it turns out is a thing.

But then, it would have to be. Otherwise the justification for what Israel is doing starts to collapse, doesn't it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_denial

Maybe if/when you get this part right we can continue with the discussion. So here is what happened.

-. by a UN approved partition plan the British allocated part of THEIR EMPIRE [note it is a British Colony], to the Jews and another part to the Arabs.
- The Jews accepted the UN Partition Plan and declared Independence in 1948
- The Arabs did not accept it, but wanted all of the land, and joined forces with surrounding Arab states and attacked Israel , ARABS ATTACKED ISRAEL.
- The Arabs lost the war, and 700,000 Arabs willingly fled or where chased out.

That is the truth from the history books. If you accept this we can continue the discussion otherwise this is my last post in this thread.

**********************************************************
Here it is :

The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, also known as the First Arab–Israeli War, followed the civil war in Mandatory Palestine as the second and final stage of the 1948 Palestine war. The civil war became a war of separate states with the Israeli Declaration of Independence on 14 May 1948, the end of the British Mandate for Palestine at midnight, and the entry of a military coalition of Arab states into the territory of Mandatory Palestine the following morning. The war formally ended with the 1949 Armistice Agreements which established the Green Line.

Since the 1917 Balfour Declaration and the 1920 creation of the British Mandate of Palestine, and in the context of Zionism and the mass migration of European Jews to Palestine, there had been tension and conflict between Arabs, Jews, and the British. British policies dissatisfied both Arabs and Jews. Arab opposition developed into the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, while the Jewish opposition developed into the 1944–1947 Jewish insurgency in Palestine.

The civil war began the day after the adoption of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine 29 November 1947 – which planned to divide the territory into an Arab state, a Jewish state, and the Special International Regime encompassing the cities of Jerusalem and Bethlehem. At the end of a series of offensives that began April 1948, in which Zionist forces had conquered cities and territories in Mandatory Palestine in preparation for the establishment of a Jewish state, Zionist leaders announced the Israeli Declaration of Independence 14 May 1948.[16] The following morning, after the termination of the British Mandate, Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and expeditionary forces from Iraq entered Palestine.[17][18][19][20] The invading forces took control of the Arab areas and attacked Israeli forces and several Jewish settlements.[21][22][23] The 10 months of fighting took place mostly on the territory of the British Mandate and in the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon, interrupted by several truce periods.[24]

As a result of the war, the State of Israel controlled the area that the UN had proposed for the Jewish state, as well as almost 60% of the area proposed for the Arab state,[25] including the Jaffa, Lydda and Ramle area, Upper Galilee, some parts of the Negev and a wide strip along the Tel Aviv–Jerusalem road. Israel also took control of West Jerusalem, which was meant to be part of an international zone for Jerusalem and its environs. Transjordan took control of East Jerusalem and what became known as the West Bank, annexing it the following year. The territory which became the Gaza Strip was occupied by Egypt.

Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes in the area that became Israel, marking the beginning of the Palestinian refugee problem,[26] in what they refer to as the Nakba (Arabic for "the catastrophe"😉. A similar number of Jews moved to Israel during the three years following the war, including 260,000 from the surrounding Arab states.[27][28][29]
**********************************************

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

@rajk999 said
Maybe if/when you get this part right we can continue with the discussion. So here is what happened.

-. by a UN approved partition plan the British allocated part of THEIR EMPIRE [note it is a British Colony], to the Jews and another part to the Arabs.
- The Jews accepted the UN Partition Plan and declared Independence in 1948
- The Arabs did not accept it, but wa ...[text shortened]... *************************************

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

But the land didn't belong to the British OR to the UN. They couldn't give the land away to anyone because it wasn't their land. The land belonged to the people who lived there.

All lands belong to the people who live there. That's a fundamental, natural right.

For 1000's of years, at various times, people have denied other people their rights, including forcing children to work, denying people the right to vote, denying women their rights, using slave labor, and, yes, taking their land.

None of those things are acceptable today. Not "Oh, maybe we will stop one day." NOW. These things need to stop now.

As for the UN, they had no governing authority over Palestine. Just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, and not a single country elects its UN representatives. So the UN is a diplomatic sewing circle that comes up with suggestions. That's it.

And certainly no one in Palestine elected the British Empire to take charge.

So the events you describe were completely illegitimate.

@spruce112358 said
But the land didn't belong to the British OR to the UN. They couldn't give the land away to anyone because it wasn't their land. The land belonged to the people who lived there.

All lands belong to the people who live there. That's a fundamental, natural right.

For 1000's of years, at various times, people have denied other people their rights, including for ...[text shortened]... ected the British Empire to take charge.

So the events you describe were completely illegitimate.

First of all, you are a liar. This what you wrote .. .. In 1948, the Jews declared independence and expelled over 700,000 Palestinians from 'their' new country. Is a lie.

Next, who the hell are you to say what was illegal over 100 years ago. That piece of land was BRITISH TERRITORY, and part of the BRITISH EMPIRE. The British conquered the Ottoman Empire and took control of the Land of Palestine. You dont like it .. tough. Those were the rules then.

This other bit you wrote .. The land belonged to the people who lived there... is another lie. In any case the Jews and other nations lived there as well. So you really have no point.

You are a typical lying terrorist supporter... you are all the same. No facts, lies, and obscenities.

@rajk999 said
You dont like it .. tough.

This seems to be your entire argument: "Might makes right."

I doubt many agree with you.

@spruce112358 said
This seems to be your entire argument: "Might makes right."

I doubt many agree with you.

you're arguing with someone that lists historical reasons why children born in 2010 and after deserve to die. Including "because a tribe settled there 4000 years ago"

Not saying you shouldn't, just making an obvious statement

@zahlanzi said
you're arguing with someone that lists historical reasons why children born in 2010 and after deserve to die. Including "because a tribe settled there 4000 years ago"

Not saying you shouldn't, just making an obvious statement

And here we have another lying supporter of Ialamic extremism, incapable of speaking the truth. You people are shameless.

@spruce112358 said
This seems to be your entire argument: "Might makes right."

I doubt many agree with you.

Israel was accepted as a sovereign independent nation into the UN on May 19th 1949, by a large majority, right after they convincingly beat the Arabs and chased them out of Israel. So you are wrong again. The world accepts Israel. The world hates Islamic extremists and are wary of Muslims. Note what is going on all over Europe where there are mass migration of Muslims. Nobody like them.

The many who do not agree with me are terrorists, Islamic sympathizers and supporters, Jew-haters and other such human beings, whose sense of morality is twisted.

@zahlanzi said
you're arguing with someone that lists historical reasons why children born in 2010 and after deserve to die. Including "because a tribe settled there 4000 years ago"

Not saying you shouldn't, just making an obvious statement

Thanks for the concern. I appreciate it.

It's really important to Rajk999 on this issue to state THIS IS THE WAY IT IS - no debate, no discussion. It's bound up in his identity and super important to him. He NEEDS it to be this way and to hear himself say it over and over.

I still wonder, why? Maybe that's the next question to ask...

@spruce112358 said
Thanks for the concern. I appreciate it.

It's really important to Rajk999 on this issue to state THIS IS THE WAY IT IS - no debate, no discussion. It's bound up in his identity and super important to him. He NEEDS it to be this way and to hear himself say it over and over.

I still wonder, why? Maybe that's the next question to ask...

i know why. he is a hateful prick who doesn't see Palestinians as actual human beings. "there are no innocents in gaza" is where debate ends

what argument could one hope to give after that. It's an exercise in futility. it gives me a modicum of pleasure to express my disgust at what scum he is just to vent my frustration this is happening and i am powerless to stop it

@spruce112358 said
Thanks for the concern. I appreciate it.

It's really important to Rajk999 on this issue to state THIS IS THE WAY IT IS - no debate, no discussion. It's bound up in his identity and super important to him. He NEEDS it to be this way and to hear himself say it over and over.

I still wonder, why? Maybe that's the next question to ask...

Oh I get it. You want to preface your discussion with a blatant lie, and you want others to participate. Dont waste my time. You carry on and discuss your delusions.

@zahlanzi said
i know why. he is a hateful prick who doesn't see Palestinians as actual human beings.

With all due respect, I don't think that's the reason...

I could be mistaken, but my instincts tell me it is something else.

For instance, he's mortally afraid of Islam. He thinks it is going to spread and 'get him,' so Israel is literally a bulwark, stopping the flood. He mentioned that.

For me, having worked with Muslims, talked with Muslims about Islam (it always comes up) and visited Muslim countries (Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Indonesia), I don't find Muslims scary at all.

But Rajk999 mentioned a coup in Trinidad. Doesn't seem like it lasted very long. I wonder if that is all that happened.

@zahlanzi said
i know why. he is a hateful prick who doesn't see Palestinians as actual human beings. "there are no innocents in gaza" is where debate ends

what argument could one hope to give after that. It's an exercise in futility. it gives me a modicum of pleasure to express my disgust at what scum he is just to vent my frustration this is happening and i am powerless to stop it

They are not human beings. Sorry. Your mind is twisted. These sickos started the war with the rape, torture of civilians, including children and babies. They dragged bodies in the streets and danced and celebrated. They are sick.

If I were in charge, I would give them 3 days, from Oct 8th to vacate Gaza [go in the f... ing sea for all I care], and the nuke the place. End of story. No long drawn out war, no loss of IDF soldiers, no billions of $$$ wasted.

@spruce112358 said
With all due respect, I don't think that's the reason...

I could be mistaken, but my instincts tell me it is something else.

For instance, he's mortally afraid of Islam. He thinks it is going to spread and 'get him,' so Israel is literally a bulwark, stopping the flood. He mentioned that.

For me, having worked with Muslims, talked with Muslims about Islam (it al ...[text shortened]... ed a coup in Trinidad. Doesn't seem like it lasted very long. I wonder if that is all that happened.

You wish I were afraid. Men living in fear do not speak out as I do. I have lots of Muslim friends and acquaintances, and most of them are moderates. The extremists I can smell a mile off and they avoid me. Just like you they re-write history, and avoid the truth, which if spoken makes them look stupid.

Many of them dont even know Muhammed was a pedophile, neither do they know Islam encourages prostitution and sex with goats and other abominable acts. They are ignorant of their own disgusting religion. I pity them just like I pity you for lacking the balls to come out and admit your comment was a lie even though I posted what the truth was. Grow some balls and face up to the truth.

@rajk999 said
Many of them dont even know Muhammed was a pedophile, neither do they know Islam encourages prostitution and sex with goats and other abominable acts. They are ignorant of their own disgusting religion.

What do your Muslim friends reply when you inform them of this?

@spruce112358 said
What do your Muslim friends reply when you inform them of this?

They dont know about that. They are nor informed neither well read on their religion and the culture from which it came. I suggest they read certain Hadiths, and then they never raise that topic again.

Its kinda like you. You said :
.. In 1948, the Jews declared independence and expelled over 700,000 Palestinians from 'their' new country.

I replied with :
So here is what happened.
-. by a UN approved partition plan the British allocated part of THEIR EMPIRE [note it is a British Colony], to the Jews and another part to the Arabs.
- The Jews accepted the UN Partition Plan and declared Independence in 1948
- The Arabs did not accept it, but wanted all of the land, and joined forces with surrounding Arab states and attacked Israel , ARABS ATTACKED ISRAEL.
- The Arabs lost the war, and 700,000 Arabs willingly fled or where chased out.

You never raised that point again. Same thing. Facts trump stories, which fade when story tellers are confronted.