F-35

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Do you know what happened to McDonnell Douglas maker of the famed F-15 Eagle and F/A-18 Hornet? Where are they today?

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Duchess64
Hurling more insults, the racist Kmax87's very disingenuous in apparently striving to argue that Chinese engineers are intrinsically incapable of original work. In fact, China bought a license from Russia to produce the Sukhoi Su-27, which was manufactured (with increasing Chinese components) as the Shenyang J-11.

Yet kmax78 previously said: “when it is easily shown that the history of Chinese military aviation is a cornucopia of re-badged Russian planes built under license, what is the average person to think?”

Duchess64
Note that Kmax87 FALSELY claims that the Chinese (Shenyang) have simply copied Russian airframes, whereas the Chinese made significant improvements by using more composite parts (saving weight). In addition. the Chinese have long rejected offers of Russian exported radars and avionics because China produces better ones.

Yet kmax78 said previously:- “Both the Shenyang J-15 and J-16 are developed from Russian airframes, the unfinished prototype of the Su-33 and the Su-30 respectively. While it is true that the Shenyang planes have made use of superior Chinese electronics, both of these 4th Generation planes first flew in 2009 and 2011-12 respectively. Your claim that China has been doing it on its own for decades is patently false"

kmax78 also said: "While they have been surpassing the Russians in terms of electronics and by making their airframes lighter through the use of composites, which improves their thrust to weight ratio, to suggest that they have not stood on the shoulders of Russian design and influence is to knowingly perpetrate a fraud.”

But I don’t think it will make any difference to you Duchess. You have shown beyond reasonable doubt that you have poor reading ability and comprehension. You rail and lecture and accuse people of error and your proof of that error is to quote sources that establish the very thing you claim your opponent has said in error. Deluded, addled and histrionic. They are only words, but they do apply.

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Maybe you are right. Maybe the Chinese engineers are inferior. You’ve said it many times. So what if you were being sarcastic or ironic. Maybe there’s a kernel of truth there. Maybe under the commie/capitalist system of the People’s Republic of China, no-one dare stick their neck out and be original for fear that if they are wrong and lose a lot of State money they will have a fall from grace that could be a fate far worse than death.

Maybe every one is super cautious and always looking over their shoulder in case they fall out of favour. So what does the system reward? You got it. Mediocrity! So if mediocre is the way, lets make sure it already works before we try it. Lets find something already defined and working and lets see how we can incrementally improve on it, because the cost of failure is way too high to start being original with something untried and unproven. Now if everyone gets that bulletin and gets it early, what hope is there of anything coming out of that system that is truly innovative or special or new?

Are Chinese engineers inferior? Yes because they are part of a culture that only pays to be right. Failure is not an option. And a fear of failure breeds caution and caution breeds inferiority. Only failure under pressure can drive the search for solutions that expand the boundaries of knowledge and produce the breakthroughs that are the hallmark of great engineering. Are Chinese engineers inferior because of their race? No. Because any engineer placed in that environment would learn to swim with the pack and learn that incremental change brings the greatest reward where team results are guaranteed.

Does that mean working with a clean sheet? Hell no. Much safer to develop further whats already been successful. Or failing that, get hold of terabytes of Lockheed Martin data to help kick-start your 5th Gen program. You can't blame anyone in that system. Too much honour and reputation at stake. No room for error, no room for miscalculation equals inferior through fear of failure. Period. End of story.

@wildgrass - said
The issue with the F-35 is it appears absurdly over what a reasonable cost would be for such a marginal advancement in miltary tech.

Well put, as was the rest of the post.
A phenomenal cost for a meager increase of ability in ONE tiny aspect of our war machines. No "value" there.

Or more succinctly, "Not enough bang for the buck".

@kmax87 said
Do you know what happened to McDonnell Douglas maker of the famed F-15 Eagle and F/A-18 Hornet? Where are they today?

Kmax, I am unaware. What did happen?

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https://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/16/news/boeing-to-buy-mcdonnell-douglas.html

McDonnell Douglas, which is based in St. Louis, Missouri, makes military aircraft that include the F/A-18 Hornet fighter, the C-17 Globemaster transport and the AH-64 Apache helicopter.

But its fortunes have been fading for years.

While Boeing has been enjoying record orders, McDonnell has faced a series of cruel and humbling setbacks.

It had agreed early this month to be a Boeing supplier. Boeing had moved quickly to close that deal, fearing McDonnell Douglas might enter a partnership with Airbus. The deal announced Sunday cements a very different relationship.

Last month, McDonnell Douglas said it was giving up plans to develop a new jumbo jet and said it would not modernize its plant in Long Beach, California.

What may have been the coup de grace to McDonnell, until recently the nation's dominant defense supplier, came Nov. 16, when the Pentagon excluded it from competition to build 3,000 planned Joint Strike Fighters in a contract worth an estimated $200 billion. Critics said McDonnell's design would have required costlier maintenance than those of other bidders. Boeing was named a finalist for the big Pentagon contract, along with Lockheed Martin Corp. of Bethesda, Maryland.

What could it all mean Duckie?
Maybe they jumped before they were pushed?
Who knows. Too difficult to fathom. Whatever wikipedia says, right?

@earl-of-trumps said
Kmax, I am unaware. What did happen?

See my post above. Wildgrass would have loved the fact that then Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney basically cancelled a program that McDonnell Douglas was responsible for. The A-12 Avenger II was to be "an all-weather, carrier-based stealth bomber replacement for the Grumman A-6 Intruder in the United States Navy and Marine Corps." but after Cheney gave them notice to show cause why the project should continue, in his opinion.... hey I'll just let the man speak for himself...

"The A-12 I did terminate. It was not an easy decision to make because it's an important requirement that we're trying to fulfill. But no one could tell me how much the program was going to cost, even just through the full scale development phase, or when it would be available. And data that had been presented at one point a few months ago turned out to be invalid and inaccurate."

Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney
1991

Also this:-

"The cancellation of the A-12 is seen as one of the major losses in the 1990s that weakened McDonnell Douglas and led to its merger with rival Boeing in 1997"
Boyne, Walter J. Air Warfare: An International Encyclopedia, Volume 1. Santa Barbara, California: 2002, pp 404-405

As I said MD basically jumped before they were pushed. Rather than see the company die, Douglas who was the Chairman of McDonnell Douglass rather sought a merger while there was still value in the MD operation. As to the merger

Boeing’s “reverse takeover” of McDonnell Douglas—so-called because it was McDonnell executives who perversely ended up in charge of the combined entity, and it was McDonnell’s culture that became ascendant. “McDonnell Douglas bought Boeing with Boeing’s money,” went the joke around Seattle.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/

Its quite a convoluted tale but the US government sued MD for over a billion plus a billion and a bit in interest charges because they did not deliver the promised aircraft and the litigation ran for years with Boeing also being sued till eventually after appeal and blah they settled with Boeing and MD paying 200 million each.

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Shut the TRUCK up, I asked Kmax, not a flaming bleeping anti-white RACIST.