ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

Debates

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K

Germany

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08 Dec 09

Originally posted by zeeblebot
http://www.podval.org/~sds/crusade.html

...

Lost before the Start of the Battle

To win, a combatant must firmly believe that his side is in the right and the opponent is wrong, he must be prepared to "go all the way". Thus, when the West suspended its liberalism in the WWII and carpet bombed Germany and Japan, it won (I am not talking about tactic ...[text shortened]... " [2003-11-17]
* Are Reports of the West's Demise Greatly Exaggerated? [2003-11-17]
"Liberalism" is related to carpet bombing how exactly? Do you even know what liberalism means?

silicon valley

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08 Dec 09

Originally posted by Palynka
LOL! More evidence that spambot posts randomly.
you and ATY haven't posted anything that didn't pop out of your heads, except his reference to a book not available in softcopy.

silicon valley

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08 Dec 09

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
"Liberalism" is related to carpet bombing how exactly? Do you even know what liberalism means?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#Natural_rights_vs._utilitarianism_vs._contractarianism

Natural rights vs. utilitarianism vs. contractarianism

In 1810, the German Wilhelm von Humboldt developed the modern concepts of liberalism in his book The Limits of State Action.[70] John Stuart Mill popularized and expanded these ideas in On Liberty (1859) and other works. He opposed collectivist tendencies while still placing emphasis on quality of life for the individual. He also had sympathy for female suffrage and (later in life) for labor co-operatives.

P
Upward Spiral

Halfway

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1 edit

Originally posted by zeeblebot
you and ATY haven't posted anything that didn't pop out of your heads, except his reference to a book not available in softcopy.
That's irrelevant to the fact that your posts are logically incoherent.

K

Germany

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08 Dec 09

Originally posted by zeeblebot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#Natural_rights_vs._utilitarianism_vs._contractarianism

Natural rights vs. utilitarianism vs. contractarianism

In 1810, the German Wilhelm von Humboldt developed the modern concepts of liberalism in his book The Limits of State Action.[70] John Stuart Mill popularized and expanded these ideas in On Liberty (1859 ...[text shortened]... ndividual. He also had sympathy for female suffrage and (later in life) for labor co-operatives.
So, now that you know the basics of what liberalism means, can you enlighten me on the link between liberalism and carpet bombing?

SR

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Originally posted by KazetNagorra
So, now that you know the basics of what liberalism means, can you enlighten me on the link between liberalism and carpet bombing?
Presumably he means that those of 'liberal' mind would never have sanctioned 'carpet bombing' and would have thus prolonged, if not lost, the war for us.

silicon valley

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08 Dec 09

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
So, now that you know the basics of what liberalism means, can you enlighten me on the link between liberalism and carpet bombing?
see the title. "The Limits of State Action". (and yes re Sartor's comment.)

Insanity at Masada

tinyurl.com/mw7txe34

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1 edit

Originally posted by zeeblebot
(relevant) text?
Sorry, can't copy paste a book, and won't bother typing it in for a copy-paster.

Insanity at Masada

tinyurl.com/mw7txe34

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3 edits

Finally, it is important to remember that no war has ever been brought to an end simply by indiscriminate bombing and mass killing of civilians. Indeed, there is abundant evidence that such strategies typically strengthened resistance.

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/650


Not exactly the strongest soft source, but it's a start.


Another vital lesson - one that has taken even air specialists by surprise - relates to the behaviour of civilian populations under air punishment. It had generally been assumed that aerial bombardment would quickly shatter popular morale, causing deep civilian reactions. ... The progress of this war has tended to indicate that this expectation was unfounded. ... These facts are significant beyond their psychological interest. They mean that haphazard destruction of cities - sheer blows at morale - are costly and wasteful in relation to the tactical results achieved. Attacks will increasingly be concentrated on military rather than on random human targets. Unplanned vandalism from the air must give way, more and more, to planned, predetermined destruction. More than ever the principal objectives will be critical aggregates of electric power, aviation industries, dock facilities, essential public utilities and the like." -- Major Alexander Seversky, US Army Air Force, Victory Through Air Power (NY, 1942).


After the war, the German Minister for Armaments Production, Albert Speer, professed shock that "vast but pointless area bombing" was being continued in favor of highly effective precision bombing.[10] According to Speer, the failure to continue regularly attacking Schweinfurt allowed the Reich to escape a "further catastrophic blow" because "armaments production would have been crucially weakened after two months and after four months would have been brought completely to a standstill."[11] "What really saved us," Speer continued, "was the fact that from this time on the enemy to our astonishment once again ceased his attacks on the ball-bearing industry."

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/war.crimes/World.war.2/Bombing.htm#AMERICAN OPPOSITION TO AREA BOMBING


In the case of the air war against the Third Reich, bombing only caused serious economic disruptions in the final year of the war, roughly from June 1944 to May 1945. By this time a German military defeat was pretty much a foregone conclusion. Based on such results, it is impossible to demonstrate that the bombing campaign would have achieved an economic breakdown of Germany since by the time such destruction was being caused, the fronts were already collapsing in both east and west. The Soviet Union, for all intents, had won the land war by the middle of 1944 and the successful Normandy invasion delivered the coup de grace. To make a case for the bombing campaign being decisive the reverse would have to be expected. That is, the fronts would have had to collapse after the industrial damage was done.

http://www.onwar.com/articles/9809.htm

Zellulärer Automat

Spiel des Lebens

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09 Dec 09

Originally posted by phil3000
It was defined as a " Slap me down " by two intergrated ,
super powers !!!!
Two leaders of the free world flexing their muscles !!! Stamping their places in history !!!
Two superpowers?

You're not suggesting that the UK is a superpower?

Guppy poo

Sewers of Holland

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09 Dec 09

Originally posted by Sartor Resartus
Presumably he means that those of 'liberal' mind would never have sanctioned 'carpet bombing' and would have thus prolonged, if not lost, the war for us.
Well, yeah...
You can't just go around killing children you know. Even if you think it benefits your cause in the long run.

That's called civilization.

Hy-Brasil

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09 Dec 09

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Two superpowers?

You're not suggesting that the UK is a superpower?
The only might the UK now has is because of their alliance w/the U.S. (their wayward step son)

s

At the Revolution

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24 Dec 09

Originally posted by zeeblebot
the "ragtag" iraqi army of 2003 could have rolled over gaza, palestine, and lebanon, had they been in the vicinity and lsrael not in the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq#Defending_force

Defending force

The number of personnel in the Iraqi military prior to the war was uncertain, but it was believed to have been poorly equip ...[text shortened]... ial forces units. The Iraqi Air Force and Iraqi Navy played a negligible role in the conflict.
They actually tried to attack Israel. It didn't go too well; Hezbollah did better in 2000 and 2006.