Top ten piano concerti

http://listverse.com/2012/04/26/top-10-greatest-piano-concerti/

Interesting list indeed, but disagree with Mozart's #21 being better than his own #24 in C minor or #20 in D minor. I also disagree that Beethoven's fifth is greater than his 4th. All the others I don't quibble with, but would have included Ravel's concerto for the left hand. Bach's Italian Concerto is better than his harpsichord concerto. Technically speaking Bach never actually wrote a piano concerto, however.

One top ten missing is also Saint-Saens #2 in G Minor:

YouTube

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
http://listverse.com/2012/04/26/top-10-greatest-piano-concerti/

Interesting list indeed, but disagree with Mozart's #21 being better than his own #24 in C minor or #20 in D minor. I also disagree that Beethoven's fifth is greater than his 4th. All the others I don't quibble with, but would have included Ravel's concerto for the left hand. Bach's Ital ...[text shortened]... en missing is also Saint-Saens #2 in G Minor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqNb_5l59_w

This one deserves honorable mention!

YouTube

I'll go with these. No particular order.

Shostakovich, Dmitri - No.2 In F, Op.102 Andante
Brahms, Johannes - No.2 Andante
Wieniaswki, Jozef - in G op20 Adagio
Hummel, Johann Nepomuk - in B minor op89 Larghetto
Mozart, WA - No.9 in Eb KV271 [Jeunehomme] Andantino
Goetz, Hermann - No.2 in B minor Adagio
Franck, Cesar - No.2 in B minor, Op.11 Adagio
Rachmaninov, Sergei - No.2 In C Minor, Op.18 Adagio Sostenuto
Chopin, Frederick - No.2 II Larghetto
Beethoven, Ludwig van - No.5 Adagio un poco moto

Originally posted by FMF
I'll go with these. No particular order.

Shostakovich, Dmitri - No.2 In F, Op.102 Andante
Brahms, Johannes - No.2 Andante
Wieniaswki, Jozef - in G op20 Adagio
Hummel, Johann Nepomuk - in B minor op89 Larghetto
Mozart, WA - No.9 in Eb KV271 [Jeunehomme] Andantino
Goetz, Hermann - No.2 in B minor Adagio
Franck, Cesar - No.2 in B minor, Op.11 Adagio
Rachm ...[text shortened]... tenuto
Chopin, Frederick - No.2 II Larghetto
Beethoven, Ludwig van - No.5 Adagio un poco moto

Can't argue about any of these, but the list calls for whole works, not individual movts. Some of the ones you cite are otherwise not real masterworks, lovely as these may be. Of Course Brahms' #2 and Beethoven #5 do make the list as does Rachmaninoff #2. Hummel's are polished show pieces, but not in the same category as any of Mozart's like his Jeunehomme, which I agree should have made the list.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
Some of the ones you cite are otherwise not real masterworks, lovely as these may be.

I thought you were looking for people's opinions.

Originally posted by FMF
I thought you were looking for people's opinions.

I think he was pointing out the ground rules for the list not admonishing your favorites.

BTW, I have a small dilemma. I recently bought a Boss BR1600 HD recorder from a pawn shop, original price $1500, I got it used for $400.

It is in excellent shape! A great find as far as I can see.

So I get it home and find there are recordings already there.

Some of them are pretty good! Singer songwriter stuff but nice instrumentals and such. There were some dogs also, so I deleted all the chaff but left about 8 of the good tracks.

My dilemma: Should I just delete all those recordings or start a search for the previous owner? I'm thinking I could make those recordings into a CD which the machine does on it's own, or I could ship it over to my PC, use Sonar and Wavelab and maybe even improve the sound.

Don't know if I should bother since one would think the dude would have already turned his songs into a CD but I don't know that for certain.

So what do you think I should do?

Originally posted by sonhouse
I think he was pointing out the ground rules for the list not admonishing your favorites.

BTW, I have a small dilemma. I recently bought a Boss BR1600 HD recorder from a pawn shop, original price $1500, I got it used for $400.

It is in excellent shape! A great find as far as I can see.

So I get it home and find there are recordings already there.
...[text shortened]... his songs into a CD but I don't know that for certain.

So what do you think I should do?

Try both. Dude may have overlooked and will be grateful and if not you will be better for having tried. Sounds like you have a wonderful toy to pay with. If and when you make a CD out of what was left behind, I'd love to hear it. Talking about recordings, any suggestions for making drum tracks work better? My son's band lost their drummer to distant college. They now rehearse with drum software, but when they perform in public it is hard to get most PA's to play it loud enough to give the effect of having a live drummer on stage.

You are absolutely right about my response to FMF. Pure and simple laying down of ground rules, not an admonition nor destructive critique.

Originally posted by FMF
I thought you were looking for people's opinions.

Without question and I am responding with mine for this is no unilateral road and I thank you kindly for posting. You cite Hummel, but leave out Mozart's #24 in C minor, #20 in D minor. Of the Jeunnehomme you prefer the adagio to the third mvt with it it's unusually interesting and haunting minuet in the middle. Your list also leaves out Schumann's incredible only concerto. I agree Shostakovich has never gotten a fair shake for his genius, but his piano concerto is not a masterwork like his symphonies and string quartets.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
You are absolutely right about my response to FMF. Pure and simple laying down of ground rules, not an admonition nor destructive critique.

I will wait for a thread that has rules that fit my list and then resubmit it.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
Without question and I am responding with mine for this is no unilateral road and I thank you kindly for posting. You cite Hummel, but leave out Mozart's #24 in C minor, #20 in D minor. Of the Jeunnehomme you prefer the adagio to the third mvt with it it's unusually interesting and haunting minuet in the middle. Your list also leaves out Schumann's incr ...[text shortened]... s genius, but his piano concerto is not a masterwork like his symphonies and string quartets.

Can you expand on the Shostakovich? Why would a genius in one venue not produce a similar quality in another? You think old Shosty just had a bad day, or had to rush to deliver a commissioned work?

What criteria do you use to separate the masterworks from the also rans?
My guess would be the use of tried and true techniques and tunes and chord structure as opposed to new ideas?

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
Try both. Dude may have overlooked and will be grateful and if not you will be better for having tried. Sounds like you have a wonderful toy to pay with. If and when you make a CD out of what was left behind, I'd love to hear it. Talking about recordings, any suggestions for making drum tracks work better? My son's band lost their drummer to distant col FMF. Pure and simple laying down of ground rules, not an admonition nor destructive critique.

I am no expert on drums. The only drums we play are Bodhran's Irish drums, hand held and mic'd like any other acoustic instrument. I know there are plenty of drum loops you can buy and stick into a recording or use with a laptop for drum licks but I know not much about that.

If it turns out the guy split to Australia or something, I guess I could pass out a CD of his work but if I find him and he is still local he may object to me making CD's, my guess is he already made his master CD's and won't need the multi-track material any more. He may have just been too lazy to erase the stuff. There is also a command that erases everything on the HD but he didn't do that either. It's called 'initialization'.

The songs that were recorded as demo's on that machine, comes with every 1600, were REALLY professionally done but using only the Boss. Some nice songs on it for sure. I'll probably put them on a CD also. It is locked for digital media but I can always take the line output and run it into my PC recorder. Won't be quite as good as digital but I defy anyone to tell the difference!

Originally posted by sonhouse
Can you expand on the Shostakovich? Why would a genius in one venue not produce a similar quality in another? You think old Shosty just had a bad day, or had to rush to deliver a commissioned work?

What criteria do you use to separate the masterworks from the also rans?
My guess would be the use of tried and true techniques and tunes and chord structure as opposed to new ideas?

Nah! I don't even go that far. I have an old book which characterizes any given work in various categories, one of them being masterworks. Many composers excelled in one genre and not in another. Shostakovich advanced symphonic writing and certainly excelled in quartet writing. His piano concerto advanced nothing past being a fine work of craftsmanship. I doubt it was commissioned for Soviet Russia did no such thing and SHostakovich was trapped in the horrible land. Probably done to please some party hack. Although his style was sometimes criticized as mechanical, and somewhat displaying lack of emotion, he repeatedly played the concerto and was well received and this applies to his other concertoes. Perhaps it was that these seem just like his playing. The composer himself in reference to #2: "This concerto is sometimes dismissed as an unimportant work by the composer, especially in comparison to some of his symphonies and string quartets." Therefore, given that Shostakovich himself did not hold his piano concertos in the same regard as his symphonic and quartet works I think i am on the right path.

But back to what constitutes a masterwork. It is a combination of both things you reference. We have so many greats who never wrote a credible piano concerto despite their skill. Amongst them Dvorak, Schubert, Mahler, Sravisnky. Others gave it one whack and bingo! Like Schumann. Others could not stop: Mozart! #'s9,11, 17, 19, 20, 21, 22, 24, 27. Some wrote 50+ and never hit on a masterwork like Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach. His more famous dad never wrote one, but his glorious harpsichord music is frequently played as piano concerto pieces. Some one might have thought would produce endless piano concerto masterworks wrote paltry/trivial pieces like Liszt. It as fascinating a subject similar to why some greats never touched opera or failed to do so credibly like Schubert and Brahms although Schubert gave it several tries unsuccessfully like his Die Zauberharfe.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
Nah! I don't even go that far. I have an old book which characterizes any given work in various categories, one of them being masterworks. Many composers excelled in one genre and not in another. Shostakovich advanced symphonic writing and certainly excelled in quartet writing. His piano concerto advanced nothing past being a fine work of craftsmanship. ...[text shortened]... and Brahms although Schubert gave it several tries unsuccessfully like his Die Zauberharfe.

Interesting, thanks for the reply.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Interesting, thanks for the reply.

Most welcome. Music is an almost endlessly vast topic. Love of serious music is on the rise across the world and where I live we're blessed with a great art district with opera house, symphony venue and several smaller theaters.

I do have an answer for you, after thinking about it a lot as to why Shostakovich did not excel in piano concerto form, but did in symphonic music and quartets. Many composers seemingly regarded the two aforementioned forms as the pinnacle of writing music and strove at creating great music whereas piano concertos were regularly commissioned by up and coming pianists. As it turns out Shostakovich wrote his second concerto for his pianist son who premiered it. Quartets are too intimate to risk writing sloppily and indeed many a composers true skill is measured in his more intimate pieces. Think of Brahms' clarinet trio, Beethoven's late quartets, Schumann's piano quartet and quintet, just to mention masterpiece examples.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
Try both. Dude may have overlooked and will be grateful and if not you will be better for having tried. Sounds like you have a wonderful toy to pay with. If and when you make a CD out of what was left behind, I'd love to hear it. Talking about recordings, any suggestions for making drum tracks work better? My son's band lost their drummer to distant col ...[text shortened]... to get most PA's to play it loud enough to give the effect of having a live drummer on stage.

Nothing compensates for having a live drummer on stage.

I merely point to John Bonham as proof.