@pettytalk said
If Jesus created the world we live in, and into which he came dressed as a man, where did Jesus live, from which he created this world of ours, which you say is the real world?

That was the question!

If, as you say, Jesus created everything, does Jesus belong in the everything created, or is Jesus outside of his creation?

If God created man in his image, an image i ...[text shortened]... ality. The same can be said of anything created. Creation, as a whole, is an image, and not reality.

God is the prime reality from which every thing else comes. God is the great I AM, He is in need of nothing, perfection in His every attribute and remains that way in all He says and does. So where God was, is a meaningless question since He creates all space and is not bound by it or time.

@pettytalk said
A real expert on reality made the following affirmation.

"The real world, was created by the real Jesus, who is the real Word of God, who entered into the real world He created, as the real incarnate Word of God made fully human."

The above affirmation begs questioning.

Question: In what world was Jesus/God living before creating the 'real' world into which he cam ...[text shortened]... eality and truth, there are myriad illusions and myriad lies.

Illusions = Lies as Reality = Truth

Everything that was created was created through Jesus Christ. Jesus the Word of God, the “said” in God said.

@pettytalk said
If there were any true believers with enough faith the size of a mustard seed, who could perform those signs listed in Mark 16:17-18, all the false preachers and teachers claiming to accomplish it would be put out of business, in a twinkling of an eye.

If it were possible, and there were believers who, with the touch of their hands, could really cure the sick, during the ...[text shortened]... y repeating their words AGAIN and AGAIN." --Matt 6:7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdfYc5B0geQ

Do you see the Holy Spirit is just like Starwars midichlorians?

@lemonjello said
All of the challenges to objective inquiry and explanation that you and Lennox raise are nothing new. They touch on things like the demarcation problem, the problem of induction, confirmation bias and the like, which have been around for centuries. Science as a collective enterprise for the most part has done its duty to address these and implement mitigation strategies, ...[text shortened]... y explains nothing but is perniciously disingenuous in its selective dismissal of scientific method.

You seem to be pushing something that you are not willing to look at in your own life the same way! You are presuming how you view things is somehow different than anyone who believes in God, a real issue for you, you have to borrow from a theistic worldview on faith, to even settle on what is true in reality!

We believe God set the universe up with law-like normality in how things behave, and you have no reason to accept that is the case, so without cause you have to say, "That is just the way it is," so without a reason to think so it's an unreasonable stance that is still taken on blind-faith. It just is, is not a reason, it's an acknowledgment of I don't know.

You see law like normative activity in the universe and assume it will always be that way, you assume it has always been that way so you then take that on faith. When we are applying tests we do so on the faith that the universe will act as it always has, and will continue to. We work things out with science looking at the universe in our faith that it will remain as it is, otherwise, there are no strategies that we could use, for it would be unpredictable. The foundation for doing science is that what we are looking at can have facts, if not what is the point?

We do not think in the universe that if I do an experiment in my lab, using X, Y, Z, and another in their labs using the same X, Y, and Z if we get different results it is because the universe is somehow different in one lab than the other, we look at what is different between the experiments, what was true in one, can not also be true in the other with different outcomes, something was different.

If you want to reject the worldview there is a reason, there is a cause for everything, you have undercut the very thing you claim you are doing with science. How do you know you can trust your mind if it is the end product of a mindless process thrown together without a reason other than chance? We really cannot even say chance and necessity, because necessity implies law-like activity where causes produce results.

@pettytalk said
If there were any true believers with enough faith the size of a mustard seed, who could perform those signs listed in Mark 16:17-18, all the false preachers and teachers claiming to accomplish it would be put out of business, in a twinkling of an eye.

If it were possible, and there were believers who, with the touch of their hands, could really cure the sick, during the ...[text shortened]... y repeating their words AGAIN and AGAIN." --Matt 6:7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdfYc5B0geQ

You want to keep asking why God isn't moving, but the real question isn't that, God will act as God wills. This is the only thing that matters.

YouTube

@pettytalk said
If there were any true believers with enough faith the size of a mustard seed, who could perform those signs listed in Mark 16:17-18, all the false preachers and teachers claiming to accomplish it would be put out of business, in a twinkling of an eye.

If it were possible, and there were believers who, with the touch of their hands, could really cure the sick, during the ...[text shortened]... y repeating their words AGAIN and AGAIN." --Matt 6:7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdfYc5B0geQ

In all of this talk, is there a point?

@pettytalk said
View the linked video. Is it literal or is it symbolic?

It's literally a staged comedy, and symbolic of very poor acting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3I5G9Cvbos

No matter the answer it’s a one off, looking at a single event doesn’t mean all would be valid or invalid, or some are and some not.

@sonhouse said
@AverageJoe1
No, it would be refreshing for you to just admit Trump has zero morals and was, is and always will be a fraud, only interested in one person, Donald Trump.
I would be the last one to suggest Bill Clinton had much in the way of morals but comparing a POTUS getting a blow job or two to what Trump did in HIS presidency, is literally no comparison. Billy didn't h ...[text shortened]... would be funny if the consequences are so severe to say Trump is an assshole but he is OUR assshole.

Your fixation on the guy is nothing sort of mental abnormality.

@pettytalk said
To EVERYONE = To ALL
"All" is also used to address the set of gifts which are all the varieties listed.

The phrase "all, and everyone" refers to the comprehensive nature of the Holy Spirit's influence. It suggests that the Holy Spirit's empowerment is not limited to a select few but is available to ALL BELIEVERS. This empowerment is not uniform across individuals; in ...[text shortened]... ceptable.

I prophecy that you will not be able to meet the request, and will weasel out as usual.

The Spirit gives these as He sees fit, when He sees fit, to whom He sees fit. Jesus when He walked as a man among us did only those things the Father showed Him. This is not like the force!

@pettytalk said
Your Jesus was the one living in the real world, the unseen heaven, and he came down to the physical world to save the world by making all the souls aware that it's all an illusion.

The real Jesus was not the physical body he took on. Even you, your real self, is not the brainwashed and fully deluded physical body you are wearing. Your soul is the real you. But can you s ...[text shortened]... lies, which is a timeless world, an eternal world, where everything is indestructible and immortal.

The real world, was created by the real Jesus, who is the real Word of God, who entered into the real world He created, as the real incarnate Word of God made fully human.

The real God revealed by giving us a revelation in how Jesus acted, by being the express image of the Father. Jesus also pointed to scripture saying it spoke of Him, talking about what He was to do, was doing, and about to do not through an illusion, but reality. In addition sending the Holy Spirit to lead and teach us in the here and now!

In human history a man rose from the dead and He changed the world. His life was foretold, His death, and why God did that can be accepted or rejected. We can be saved from the wrath of God by God, by being justified by His grace or condemned but justice will prevail.

@lemonjello said

How you view the world is based upon what you think is true in it, you deny that? We can fool ourselves by looking for confirmation of our biases over things that contradict them. You will not correct someone's way of thinking if you don't think they are doing it wrong, for crying out loud you are doing it here with me and you fail to see that?

That on ...[text shortened]... ly-nilly; there are rules to the methods of explanation, which neither you nor Lennox seem to grasp.

Nothing that you can say as truth, can be shown as true, if you are not willing to accept some things on faith, you cannot suggest because things always behaved uniformly over time before now, that they always will, that is faith. You cannot say someone is wrong about anything without first knowing what is correct, you cannot say that every view is good while disagreeing with some who hold views contrary to yours, you cannot say this is up, down, right, or left without a fixed reference point.

Without a reference point that transcends us, we are afloat untethered to reality, and are left to our own devices to make it all up as we go. If we are making it up as we go then we are the sole arbiters of right and wrong, that may sound and feel good until you run into someone else, who thinks they, not you, should have the things you own, or have unwanted desires for your body.

A transcendent creator is required for all things created from space, time, energy, and mass these things didn't create themselves. Those are not the only things we see in the universe that weren't here in the universe before either such as the immaterial, thoughts, logic, math, love, hate, joy, peace, beauty, consciousness, and a host of other things.

So which is primary, the immaterial, or the material, which was first, meaning did come from the living Word (Jesus Christ), whom I give all created to for all of creation. You cannot say there is no evidence when the entire universe is evidence, the fine-tuning to a very exacting degree, the complex nature of biology where life is made up of highly complex subsystems integrated into one living organism because chance and necessity are not capable of that, if you disagree show it can be done with what we see in the here and now.

@pettytalk said
How can we exclude speaking about you from the conversation, when we are discussing your lack of understanding of the Word?

If one is capable of tracing steps back on this thread, without becoming more lost than already is, perhaps a sliver of light may penetrate the dense gray matter.

It's not so much a matter of the gift of the Holy Spirit, as it is more a matter of ...[text shortened]... ght KellyJay. And may the Force be with you, someday!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLcKWB1-KKI

1 Corinthians 12
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

You should use the Word when talking about it, and do not just take one passage and apply a meaning to it that doesn't line up with the rest of the Word, a systematic prayerful approach is called for.

@pettytalk said
You are not only partially ignorant in science matters, as moonbus tells you, but you are also terribly ignorant when it comes to partially understanding the Word of God.

And you still have not provided those historically documented, verified, feats of laying hands resulting of positive results of any of those miraculous signs. You did claim to have them, right?

The ...[text shortened]... ering from irreversible brainwashing, by having the wool pulled over their eyes, as the saying goes.

I see you left the topic and have been reduced to speaking about me. Pity

@moonbus said
Your barb misses the mark; I'm not the one here who believes in a blind watchmaker.

As for "fictitious facts", we can start with the account in Genesis: saying everything came from nothing, ex nihilo, because somebody uttered some power words ("let there be light" ) is the stuff of Harry Potter stories. It sure isn't science.

You believe evolution had a designer that knew what was required and planned it out? The blind watch maker refers to a mindless process guiding evolution. So unless you are recanting your anti design view point you most certainly do have a problem with out answers.

@pettytalk said
That's where we get the expression: it's a matter of fact. The fact that physical matter is not a fact at all. The fact is that it's all an illusion. An illusion created by God, to deceive everyone, especially Christians and atheists.

In reality, the grand illusion is meant for all eyes to see and all ears to hear, as Jesus often exclaimed. Science is a part of the grand ...[text shortened]... ement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIuCdQtNBgg&list=OLAK5uy_lFI8Niz0KvEK_YdIo-ixA464L3jVaF2Go

If you are living in an illusion why bother those of us with physical bodies living in the real world?