27 Apr 05
Originally posted by eagles54I think the point of this was to stop striving to become and learn how to let one's natural self (space between the thoughts) emerge. Tricky.
KneverKnight, I'll ask you.
In order to become a master of Zen, did Ryokan practice meditation?
If so, what for?
I don't know if Ryokan "practiced" meditation, but he probably did meditate.
I'm not all that well-versed in these things though.
27 Apr 05
Originally posted by KneverKnightHow does one learn to stop striving without a method (meditation)?
I think the point of this was to stop striving to become and learn how to let one's natural self (space between the thoughts) emerge. Tricky.
I don't know if Ryokan "practiced" meditation, but he probably did meditate.
I'm not all that well-versed in these things though.
If I didn't practice meditation my mind would be like a breeding lab full on a picnic.
27 Apr 05
Originally posted by eagles54Stop practising; perform!
How does one learn to stop striving without a method (meditation)?
If I didn't practice meditation my mind would be like a breeding lab full on a picnic.
Sorry, just getting into the spirit here.
If you are interested in meditation, a good place to start is with "breathing exercises" Just pick a quiet time, get comfy and focus your mind on observing how your body breathes. Just let it happen without trying to interfere. If you hear a noise from outside, just let it pass without judging it.
But I've said too much, others can help you more than I, eg there are probably resources for this online.
27 Apr 05
1 edit
Originally posted by KneverKnightI'm confused - what is the difference between practicing meditation and 'performing'?
Stop practising; perform!
Sorry, just getting into the spirit here.
If you are interested in meditation, a good place to start is with "breathing exercises" Just pick a quiet time, get comfy and focus your mind on observing how y ...[text shortened]... ou more than I, eg there are probably resources for this online.
If meditation has no causal relationship with enlightenment, why do teachers instruct in its usage?
I'm as thick as Dogen's brick, t'would seem.
27 Apr 05
Originally posted by frogstompThat devil's pitch fork pricked a hole open in Ryokan's dingy and he fell into the water with a great splash only to discover that he could walk on the water because the gas from all the fish he ate gave him sufficient intertial-repulsive force.
Splash
27 Apr 05
Originally posted by KneverKnightThat's pretty much it....with one refinement, I'd say -- that being that there is no "self to emerge" from the space between thoughts that is separate from who you recognize yourself to be. What the essence of the enlightenment experience is, is that our very identity is consciousness itself. Delusion occurs when we identify with thoughts and come to believe that we are our thoughts.
I think the point of this was to stop striving to become and learn how to let one's natural self (space between the thoughts) emerge. Tricky.
I don't know if Ryokan "practiced" meditation, but he probably did meditate.
I'm not all that well-versed in these things though.
27 Apr 05
Originally posted by eagles54Why meditate if our natural state already is?
I'm confused - what is the difference between practicing mediation and 'performing'?
If meditation has no causal relationship with enlightenment, why do teachers instruct in its usage?
I'm as thick as Dogen's brick, t'would seem.
That's the perennial question, and the very heart of the enlightenment paradox.
1. Nothing can be "done" to bring it about, as consciousness is already the case.
2. However -- and this is crucial -- it's not true that we should "do nothing", because if we do, then the ego is simply hijacking the process and utilizing the "need do nothing" idea as a justification for staying asleep.
3. So yes, we must practice...until we realize that our essential nature is already whole and complete. Practice can be compared to "dusting" the mirror of our consciousness. The mirror is already there, perfect in itself. But meditating or observing the mind is equivalent to "dusting", keeping the accumulations of daily thoughts from obscuring the realization of our natural state.
So in the Ryokan parable, he was instructing an advanced student who was ready to go beyond practice and enter into the ultimate practice, which is ongoing awareness of this moment. And in the parable the student in fact had a "satori" (sudden awakening) after Ryokan's words to him.
27 Apr 05
Originally posted by eagles54I'd say that "not believing" that we are our thoughts is a good foundation but not enough in itself, because this needs to go beyond "belief" into the domain of direct experience. Hence the need for practice...
I don't believe I am my thoughts but it hasn't alleviated my everyday confusion.
27 Apr 05
Originally posted by MetamorphosisThen there is a causal relationship between meditation practice and enlightenment that just wasn't apparent in the story before.
So in the Ryokan parable, he was instructing an advanced student who was ready to go beyond practice and enter into the ultimate practice, which is ongoing awareness of this moment. And in the parable the student in fact had a "satori" (sudden awakening) after Ryokan's words to him.
Thank you.
27 Apr 05
Originally posted by Metamorphosisthe devil laughed , good spiritedly, as he watched and heard Ryokan being jet-propulsed willy-nilly over the lake like an untied balloon.
That devil's pitch fork pricked a hole open in Ryokan's dingy and he fell into the water with a great splash only to discover that he could walk on the water because the gas from all the fish he ate gave him sufficient intertial-repulsive force.