Why I believe...

Originally posted by LemonJello
see, for some reason, i don't get the same warm feeling inside as when i read the Skipper's post. you use words like 'inerent' [sic], 'the truth', 'only the gospel...can save', 'profound truth'. it leads me to think that you don't believe it's all simply a matter of faith, which it seems to be.

you can certainly have your beliefs, but are you willing to admit that they may, in fact, be wrong?

So would you regard it as sufficient evidence if I tell you that I have experienced the truth of the Bible in a personal way to be the truth?

Look LJ, I cannot prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. I cannot prove to you that there were 500 witnesses that saw Him before he ascended into Heaven.

But what I do have is a personal testemony about a life changing experience with the risen Christ, in which I experienced deliverance from the bondage of sin. In every conceivable fashion I found the promises of the Bible to be true. I have the joy of being forgiven as well as the peace that passes all understanding. By faith in Jesus Christ , I have the assurance of Salvation as well as the wish that everybody else should have what I have.

Originally posted by dj2becker
So would you regard it as sufficient evidence if I tell you that I have experienced the truth of the Bible in a personal way to be the truth?

Look LJ, I cannot prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. I cannot prove to you that there were 500 witnesses that saw Him before he ascended into Heaven.

But what I do ha ...[text shortened]... ve the assurance of Salvation as well as the wish that everybody else should have what I have.

So would you regard it as sufficient evidence if I tell you that I have experienced the truth of the Bible in a personal way to be the truth?

depends on what you mean by 'truth,' but probably not.

Look LJ, I cannot prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. I cannot prove to you that there were 500 witnesses that saw Him before he ascended into Heaven.

i am not looking for proof 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'. i am looking for some kind of coherent argument. are you going to answer my question that i posed or what? a yes/no answer will suffice: are you willing to admit that your beliefs about god and the bible may, in fact, be wrong?

But what I do have is a personal testemony about a life changing experience with the risen Christ, in which I experienced deliverance from the bondage of sin. In every conceivable fashion I found the promises of the Bible to be true. I have the joy of being forgiven as well as the peace that passes all understanding. By faith in Jesus Christ , I have the assurance of Salvation as well as the wish that everybody else should have what I have.

yes, i know that you have these beliefs. what i am not convinced you have is any demonstrable evidence for them.

Originally posted by LemonJello
So would you regard it as sufficient evidence if I tell you that I have experienced the truth of the Bible in a personal way to be the truth?

depends on what you mean by 'truth,' but probably not.

Look LJ, I cannot prove t ...[text shortened]... i am not convinced you have is any demonstrable evidence for them.

i am looking for some kind of coherent argument.

Have you read even one of the many books that have been written on the topic? Have you even started reading the "Why I Believe" Book that I suggested a few months ago? If you have, let me know what you think about it. I have many more titles if you would like to have them.

If you are simply looking for an outline there are many sites. Here's one for starters:http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=551

are you willing to admit that your beliefs about god and the bible may, in fact, be wrong?

I have all the reasons to say no and not a single reason to say yes. (At this point in time. I somehow doubt that this will change though...)

[qoute] i am looking for some kind of coherent argument.

Have you read even one of the many books that have been written on the topic? Have you even started reading the "Why I Believe" Book that I suggested a few months ago? If you have, let me know what you think about it. I have many more titles if you would like to have them.

If you are simply looking for an outline there are many sites. Here's one for starters:http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=551[/quote]

It would be much more efficient if you had just answered, "No. I do not have a coherent argument. Look elsewhere."

are you willing to admit that your beliefs about god and the bible may, in fact, be wrong?

I have all the reasons to say no and not a single reason to say yes. (At this point in time. I somehow doubt that this will change though...)

It would have been more honest to say, "No. I am not prepared at this time to concede such a possibility." One reason that you have to "yes" to LJ's question is that humans make errors (yes, dj2, even you or your parents). Sometimes perception clouds issues and obscures truth. Othertimes limited information restricts knowledge. The humble thing to do is to recognize that you could be wrong (even if, at the moment, you see no reason to indicate that you actually are wrong). This is especially true given that you, like I, believe that when it come to extra-natural matters (like superstitions) the majority of people, those alive and those dead, have got or have gotten things wrong.

Originally posted by telerion

[qoute][b] i am looking for some kind of coherent argument.

Have you read even one of the many books that have been written on the topic? Have you even started reading the "Why I Believe" Book that I suggested a few months ago? ...[text shortened]... ose alive and those dead, have got or have gotten things wrong.
[/b]

All that I can say to you is this: "You will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." & "When the Son sets you free you will be free indeed." I 'know' the Truth because it has set me free. I know the Son because He has set me free indeed.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b] i am looking for some kind of coherent argument.

Have you read even one of the many books that have been written on the topic? Have you even started reading the "Why I Believe" Book that I suggested a few months ago? If you h ...[text shortened]... time. I somehow doubt that this will change though...)





[/b]

okay, so you are not interested in providing a coherent argument. you are eager to tell me how i should live my life, but you are not interested in providing reasons why. you are eager to state the 'truth', but you don't think it is important to demonstrate that it is in fact the truth. fine.

i have your book by Kennedy from the library; i'll read it and leave you alone then. later, i'll give you my critique of it -- fair enough? i couldn't find your book about the zulus, which is odd considering that i have one of the best library systems in the world at my fingertips here on campus; as such, i have given up looking for that book, at least temporarily.

EDIT: btw, have you obtained and/or read the book i suggested to you? are you even interested in hearing dissenting opinions?

Originally posted by LemonJello
okay, so you are not interested in providing a coherent argument. you are eager to tell me how i should live my life, but you are not interested in providing reasons why. you are eager to state the 'truth', but you don't think it is important to demonstrate that it is in fact the truth. fine.

i have your book by Kennedy from the library; i'll re ...[text shortened]... nd/or read the book i suggested to you? are you even interested in hearing dissenting opinions?

okay, so you are not interested in providing a coherent argument.

Have you read the info on the site that I have given you? Or do you want me to type it out all over again?

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]okay, so you are not interested in providing a coherent argument.

Have you read the info on the site that I have given you? Or do you want me to type it out all over again?

[/b]

the last thing i want is some more cut and paste from you.

Originally posted by LemonJello
the last thing i want is some more cut and paste from you.

So have you read through the site or not?

Originally posted by dj2becker
So have you read through the site or not?

so have you read the book i suggested or not? i'm done speaking with you dj2 for the moment. i'll read Kennedy and get back with you at a later time.

Originally posted by LemonJello
so have you read the book i suggested or not? i'm done speaking with you dj2 for the moment. i'll read Kennedy and get back with you at a later time.

By the way, the site that I suggested was for some of the 'evidences' for the resurrection...

I am currently studying at a Christian College so I didn't find your book (for obvious reasons) in our library. I did however find the book, "A case for Christ, by Lee Strobel."

PS: I think the book about the Zulus is printed close to where I stay, so if you want it you could PM me your postal adress and I could mail it to you.

Originally posted by Jay Peatea
Next time there is some world disaster or international incident, look at your different national newspapers. Then compare them, what you will find will be conflicting reports of events. Maybe a different number of people dead, or various theories how such an event could happen. Then look at papers (you can do it on the internet) from other countries, dep ...[text shortened]... and pull that rock from under your feet, so that you are again, standing firmly on the ground 🙂

Presumably nobody had anything to say about this post because it is so reasonable 😉

Originally posted by dj2becker
By the way, the site that I suggested was for some of the 'evidences' for the resurrection...

I am currently studying at a Christian College so I didn't find your book (for obvious reasons) in our library. I did however find the book, "A case for Christ, by Lee Strobel."

PS: I think the book about the Zulus is printed close to where I stay, so if you want it you could PM me your postal adress and I could mail it to you.

sorry dj2, but i found no 'evidences for the resurrection' on the site you mentioned. as far as evidence of the resurrection, the only thing the site offers is some sentence-long testimonies by so-called 'outstanding historians,' including a Roman history scholar, a textual critic, a professor of ancient history, a legal authority, an attorney general, and a rationalistic lawyer. the rest of the page is devoted to the ramifications of the resurrection, ie., what it signifies and how we should live our lives given that the resurrection really occurred.

in short, the site offers no 'evidence' of the resurrection at all; it basically takes it for granted that the resurrection occurred and then proceeds to expound upon its significance.

the whole article, from the testimonies onward, reads like an infomercial. here is just some of the sales pitch:

Listen to this statement by the millionaire and super-star O. J. Simpson in People Magazine, June 12, 1978.

“I sit in my house in Buffalo and sometimes I get so lonely it’s unbelievable. Life has been so good to me. I’ve got a great wife, good kinds, money, my own health--and I’m lonely and bored. . . . I often wondered why so many rich people commit suicide. Money sure isn’t a cure-all.”

Fame and fortune not only do not lead to happiness, they can’t even begin to give one the capacity to handle life or live with integrity, as the more recent events in the life of O. J. Simpson surely illustrate.

lol. of course, you know what the next line will be: jesus is the answer. if only OJ would have found jesus. lol.

Originally posted by LemonJello
sorry dj2, but i found no 'evidences for the resurrection' on the site you mentioned. as far as evidence of the resurrection, the only thing the site offers is some sentence-long testimonies by so-called 'outstanding historians,' including a Roman history scholar, a textual critic, a professor of ancient history, a legal authority, an attorney genera ...[text shortened]... know what the next line will be: jesus is the answer. if only OJ would have found jesus. lol.

Tell me LJ, what kind of evidence would you be willing to accept for the ressurection of Jesus Christ?

Is an empty tomb not enough? If not, what are the alternatives? Do you think his disciples stole him and went on to allow themselves to be martyred for their false claim that He rose from the dead?

Originally posted by dj2becker
A good starter might be 'The case for Christ' by Lee Strobel.

Oh yeah . . . Lee Strobel, aka Apologetics Light. The dude is an intellectual con artist. I've read "The Case for Faith." It's should be called "The Case for Not Believing What Lee Strobel Does."