04 Dec 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzA lot of this depends on how you define omniscience really. I define omniscience as God knowing everything about your life and every decision that you make throughout your entire life. This is omniscience. There is nothing in the word omniscience that implies that God must know in a particular way , just that he knows.
No, I don't think so. My logic holds up even if God is allowed that liberty. The important thing though is, if we logically allow all possible universes to exist, and God be the the overseer of them all, it could not be readily said that God has omniscience at all, since He would not know in advance the decisions that you [b]will make. That is to say, if free will is truly free, then God could not possibly be omniscient.[/b]
04 Dec 06
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Originally posted by whiterosenot according to them.
I disagree. Everyone chooses their faith, or lack thereof, just as they choose what to have for breakfast.
Breakfast was predestined !
EDIT .... in illustration:::
suppose they ask their Mama's to make them bacon, eggs, toast and a nice tall glass of OJ and all they get is a bowl of Numbnut Flakes... that's destiny.
04 Dec 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzAnd this is your cognitive mistake here. Look at the way you phrased this....
But its not about YOU. It's nothing to do with you - directly at least. At the moment of creation God knew everything that would transpire in the universe. Nothing could ever deviate from that plan - that would be tantamount to denying God's omniscience and omnipotence. Even if you think you have free will, you don't. It's like saying that g ...[text shortened]... ours is pre-determined, and you can never make any decision that wasn't preordained by God.
"At the moment of creation God knew everything that would transpire in the universe." Scottishnz
In reality God knew everything that HAD (not "would"😉 transpired in the universe
How did he know ? Because to him it had already happened!!!! But how could he be at the beginning of time and also be at the end of the time at the same time that's impossible you might say! It's impossible for you because you are trapped in a timeline. God however is not , so stop placing him in one and you might get hint of what eternity might look like.
He knows what you are going to do because he can "run round time "and look backwards at your future but until you do it he can't see you doing it. So you still have to choose to do something before God can know what it was you did and then he can "run round time" again into your past and know your future , but since your future is as equally his past to him it's not a problem.
04 Dec 06
Originally posted by whiteroseI disagree with this. You are not totally predisposed to do everything in your life and God does not PREdict, he POSTdicts. Only beings stuck in a time line have to predict things because they have to anticipate the future. God does not anticipate he's just there watching the future right now , just like he is watching the present.
If there is no past and future for God, then you cannot use phrases such as "last week" to describe His knowledge. You could have had anything you wanted for breakfast. You could have gotten in your car with your fishing pole at 5am, gone to a river, and caught yourself a fish. However, you DID buy an apple slice(you lazy sod) 🙂 Why? Because everything th ...[text shortened]... u COULD make any choice you want about what to have for breakfast, but you WILL only make one.
04 Dec 06
Originally posted by scottishinnz"if we logically allow all possible universes"
No, I don't think so. My logic holds up even if God is allowed that liberty. The important thing though is, if we logically allow all possible universes to exist, and God be the the overseer of them all, it could not be readily said that God has omniscience at all, since He would not know in advance the decisions that you [b]will make. That is to say, if free will is truly free, then God could not possibly be omniscient.[/b]
sorry , unproven premise alert!! We don't know that there is even one parallel universe , thus your argument is not based on logic but supposition.
04 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterThen we do not disagree, except maybe on the point that there is actually a God up in the sky somewhere watching over all. If there was such a thing, you are absolutely correct in saying that He wouldn't have to predict anything, as predict is a time dependent word.
I disagree with this. You are not totally predisposed to do everything in your life and God does not PREdict, he POSTdicts. Only beings stuck in a time line have to predict things because they have to anticipate the future. God does not anticipate he's just there watching the future right now , just like he is watching the present.
04 Dec 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzGod could NOT say with absolute certainty that you "WOULD" buy an apple slice (that would be placing him on the time line like you) , what he could say is that he is NOW watching you buy an apple slice in the same way as you can watch yourself making a choice in the past on home video footage. He is certain that you did actually buy the apple slice because to him it has already happened. The future is not laid out in front of him , your future is laid out behind him. To him you are already born , dead and in heaven (I hope) right now , not tomorrow.
Hmmm. However, if a God which existed last week could say with absolute certainty that I'd buy an apple slice for breakfast today (I did - and very tasty it is too) then I could not have bought anything else. Of course, I have the impression that I could buy anything I wanted, for example a muffin, but the very fact that (for the sake of argument) God ...[text shortened]... existed in the (human) past. Whether or not that's the way God experiences it is immaterial.
If you watch yourself in the past making a choice on video how does that logically prove that whatever choice you made back then could not have been any other way? All it would prove was that you did actually make that particular choice in the end whther predetermined of by free will.
04 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterLMAO! Here you are positing some entity that exists "outside of time" but you have the gall to say this about other possible universes:
"if we logically allow all possible universes"
sorry , unproven premise alert!! We don't know that there is even one parallel universe , thus your argument is not based on logic but supposition.
sorry , unproven premise alert!! We don't know that there is even one parallel universe , thus your argument is not based on logic but supposition.
Are you kidding????????
04 Dec 06
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Originally posted by scottishinnz"My argument exists with only one assumption, that God existed in the (human) past. Whether or not that's the way God experiences it is immaterial."
Hmmm. However, if a God which existed last week could say with absolute certainty that I'd buy an apple slice for breakfast today (I did - and very tasty it is too) then I could not have bought anything else. Of course, I have the impression that I could buy anything I wanted, for example a muffin, but the very fact that (for the sake of argument) God ...[text shortened]... existed in the (human) past. Whether or not that's the way God experiences it is immaterial.
It is material the way God experiences it.
Imagine your life as a timeline stretched out like a line on the ground with a beginning and an end. God is standing over your timeline looking at it sideways NOT along it , or in it but above it with an overview. You are travelling along that line making choices that creates that line behind you because until you have done something that choice cannot exist in time , you are creating that line as you go along.
So how can God see the line in front of you as well as the line behind you ? You can see the line behind you because it's your past and you can see where you are now because it's now , but you can't see the future because you haven't made those choices yet. How does God see it then?
Well he looks sideways at the line for a start but more importantly he can see you at the end of the line as well when you die. Infact he sees a million of you all making choices at different points in your timeline. He doesn't see you travelling "through" the timeline , he sees every part of the timeline simultaneously in one big eternal NOW for him.
So how does he see your future choices? Because to him it's what you are doing right now . But for you you have yet to make those choices. It matters not , whatever choice you freely make God is still there watching you right now. If God is eternal then it would have to be like that.
05 Dec 06
Originally posted by whiteroseKnowing what will happen does take away the choice. Anything else is illogical. If God, by what ever means, knows what will happen in our future then we have no choice (free will) and predestination is fact.
"in advance" is a construct of time, which apparently God is not bound by. Just because you have the freedom to chose something does not mean that you will choose it. In fact, what people actually choose to do is relatively easy to predict, even for us mere mortals (many people make their living doing it in fact). So, perhaps it is possible, without taking ...[text shortened]... going to choose. It does not imply that you cannot choose otherwise, simply that you will not.
05 Dec 06
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe first thing to appreciate here is what kind of logic wew are applying here. If our logic is based upon a strict timeline and is time limited then what God can do seems paradoxical to us , but if time is not the only dimension then it might be logical.
Knowing what will happen does take away the choice. Anything else is illogical. If God, by what ever means, knows what will happen in our future then we have no choice (free will) and predestination is fact.
It's so hard for us to understand how God can be in our future and our past and present all simultaneously because we are trapped in time. It's like a two dimensional circle trying to understand a sphere. A 2d circle has next to no idea what a term like "mass" or volume mean. It is illogical to a circle that a sphere can roll around in all directions without falling over. It makes no sense , but it's not because the sphere is doing something in bad faith or something impossible , it's to do with the differences in dimensions of the two.
In any case God does not know what "WILL" happen (because that sugests predetermination) he knows what HAS happened because he is now watching you do it. You can do whatever you like he will still be watching you in the future in what for him is "this present moment". It's not illogical it's just paradoxical from our limited perspective. There's a difference.
05 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterThe very existence of an entity outside of time capable of recording events taking place inside time dictates that predetermination is a fact. You can talk dimensions all you like it wont change that.
The first thing to appreciate here is what kind of logic wew are applying here. If our logic is based upon a strict timeline and is time limited then what God can do seems paradoxical to us , but if time is not the only dimension then it might be logical.
It's so hard for us to understand how God can be in our future and our past and present all si ...[text shortened]... illogical it's just paradoxical from our limited perspective. There's a difference.