27 Sep 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterIt hasn't been my experience that Christians are any better at following the teachings of Jesus than the general population. In fact, I don't know that I have known any Christians that actually follow the teachings of Jesus. So it would appear that all the talk of believing in, loving and taking Jesus as Lord is mostly that: talk.
If one truly loved Jesus, one would follow the teachings of Jesus. If one truly believed in Jesus, one would follow the teachings of Jesus. From what I can tell, Jesus doesn't ask one to "try", Jesus asks one to humbly follow. Tof ONE
I find this thinking very all or nothing. It's all a bit naive. Is it not possible to grow in love and to love inco to 100% ) ?
It's all black and white , all or nothing , 0 or 100 - why ?
I'm thinking that if Christians loved Jesus as much as they claim, that, as a whole, they would be noticably more successful at walking the walk.
Just humbly follow Jesus instead of following the desires of the ego.
If more Christians would get past their pride and do this instead of making excuses, perhaps the difference would be noticable.
27 Sep 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIt's not surrender, you're making out the ego to be some great overlord to bow down before. It's more like coming to know yourself, the real you, the 'I' that is. Not attempting to change yourself, but to develop yourself by understanding.
Let me see if I understand you correctly. It seems that what you are saying is that by unless one concedes complete and unconditional surrender to the desires of the ego, one is enslaved by the ego.
But by surrendering, one gets to feel good about oneself.
This is an interesting concept, but I have to believe that there's more than a little bit of rationalization going on here.
27 Sep 07
1 edit
Originally posted by StarrmanThis is more than a bit off topic, but it's interesting.
It's not surrender, you're making out the ego to be some great overlord to bow down before. It's more like coming to know yourself, the real you, the 'I' that is. Not attempting to change yourself, but to develop yourself by understanding.
Perhaps if you reflect on things a bit, you'll come to realize how much people are slaves to desires of the ego. Most not only don't realize it, but are irrational in their efforts to defend it. For example, alcoholics denying their addiction can come up with a remarkable array of 'reasons'. Similar lines of thought are used in rationalizing other desires of the ego.
As a thought experiment, you might want to consider that what you now consider to be the 'real you', isn't.
27 Sep 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWell, if you're going to consider addictions in a sort of 'monsters from the Id' way, then yes, people can become enslaved by them. It's not really what I'm trying to get at. Let me take some time to mull over and present it with better clarity. I'll start a new thread if you like.
This is more than a bit off topic, but it's interesting.
Perhaps if you reflect on things a bit, you'll come to realize how much people are slaves to desires of the ego. Most not only don't realize it, but are irrational in their efforts to defend it. For example, alcoholics denying their addiction can come up with a remarkable array of 'reasons'. Sim ...[text shortened]... ment, you might want to consider that what you now consider to be the 'real you', isn't.
27 Sep 07
Originally posted by StarrmanA new thread sounds like a good idea. Looking forward to your thoughts on this.
Well, if you're going to consider addictions in a sort of 'monsters from the Id' way, then yes, people can become enslaved by them. It's not really what I'm trying to get at. Let me take some time to mull over and present it with better clarity. I'll start a new thread if you like.
28 Sep 07
Originally posted by duecerWhat do you think stops them from making the leap?
Why do so few Christians love Jesus?
It is in the nature of humans to be selfish, love is an act of giving, and for it to be real it must be unconditional.
Although I think many people are in love with the idea of loving Christ, but havn't made that leap yet
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIn fact, I don't know that I have known any Christians that actually follow the teachings of Jesus. So it would appear that all the talk of believing in, loving and taking Jesus as Lord is mostly that: talk------------. Tof One
It hasn't been my experience that Christians are any better at following the teachings of Jesus than the general population. In fact, I don't know that I have known any Christians that actually follow the teachings of Jesus. So it would appear that all the talk of believing in, loving and taking Jesus as Lord is mostly that: talk.
I'm thinking that if ...[text shortened]... their pride and do this instead of making excuses, perhaps the difference would be noticable.
Bono is a christian and although not a saint (like sir Bob) , I think he's done loads. Gary Player is another christian who has done masses for the poor. I could create a list if you like. I can certainly think of people who I know who are following christ. Much of what these people do goes unnoticed in quiet places where people don't usually focus.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterIn case you missed it, it's not about doing 'works', it's about getting one's heart right. There are any number of self-serving reasons someone might do 'good things'.
In fact, I don't know that I have known any Christians that actually follow the teachings of Jesus. So it would appear that all the talk of believing in, loving and taking Jesus as Lord is mostly that: talk------------. Tof One
Bono is a christian and although not a saint (like sir Bob) , I think he's done loads. Gary Player is another christian who ...[text shortened]... Much of what these people do goes unnoticed in quiet places where people don't usually focus.
29 Sep 07
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIn case you missed it, it's not about doing 'works', it's about getting one's heart right. There are any number of self-serving reasons someone might do 'good things'. -------TofOne
In case you missed it, it's not about doing 'works', it's about getting one's heart right. There are any number of self-serving reasons someone might do 'good things'.
Yes , but does that mean that doing good works means that one necessarily doesn't have their heart in the right place? How does one know if the heart is right? If you go down this road you could also say that there are "any number of reasons" why a man might "humbly follow the teachings of Jesus". Unless we can see inside a man we might never be able to know for sure what a man's reasons are whatever he does. For all you know you might be the only man on earth with your "heart right" and the rest of us are all self serving with any trace of humility as a front.
One thing I do know about Bono is that his trips to Africa in the 80's (live aid etc) were not publicised at the time nor was publicity sought. He could have also stayed well out the Africa AIDS thing or the Jubilee debt intiative since he hardly needs the publicity or the money. You can tell that the band members really care about this stuff. The Edge helped out musicians in New Orleans after Katrina. Oops , another Christian walking the walk.
I think if you are dying of AIDS or starvation then philosophising about how humble the person's ego is who is feeding you might be not very high on your list of priorities! Was not one of Jesus's teachings "when I was hungry did you feed me?".
29 Sep 07
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Originally posted by knightmeisterYou're the one bringing up good deeds by pop stars in an attempt to show Christians that follow the teachings of Jesus. Let's face it, I'm sure that Dennis Radar did many a good deed between killings.
In case you missed it, it's not about doing 'works', it's about getting one's heart right. There are any number of self-serving reasons someone might do 'good things'. -------TofOne
Yes , but does that mean that doing good works means that one necessarily doesn't have their heart in the right place? How does one know if the heart is right? If you go ies! Was not one of Jesus's teachings "when I was hungry did you feed me?".
The point is and continues to be that it hasn't been my experience that Christians are any better at following the teachings of Jesus than the general population. I find this disconcerting to say the least.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIt's easy to judge others... But much more difficult to judge yourself.
You're the one bringing up good deeds by pop stars in an attempt to show Christians that follow the teachings of Jesus. Let's face it, I'm sure that Dennis Radar did many a good deed between killings.
The point is and continues to be that it hasn't been my experience that Christians are any better at following the teachings of Jesus than the general population. I find this disconcerting to say the least.
Every conversation I've had with you has involved, in one way or another, your own dissatisfaction with the perceived unrighteousness of people claiming to be Christians. Do you think judging others makes you immune to the same standard by which you judge?
No, it doesn't. The Bible says, "You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things" (Romans 2:1).
The word of God says you do the very things you accuse Christians of doing.
Is the word of God correct in that assessment, or do you fulfill the law perfectly? If you do, then I will admit that you are in a legitimate position to judge others. But, of course, you do not: "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2:16).
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasWow. Talk about taking verses out of context. Wasn't Romans a letter written by Paul to a specific group of people? I read this as being about the hypocrisy of the leaders of which Paul has knowlege.
It's easy to judge others... But much more difficult to judge yourself.
Every conversation I've had with you has involved, in one way or another, your own dissatisfaction with the perceived unrighteousness of people claiming to be Christians. Do you think judging others makes you immune to the same standard by which you judge?
No, it doesn't. Th ...[text shortened]... urse, you do not: "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2:16).
What do you think that the verse from Galatians means?
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIt is essentially the same message as Christ's, "Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Matthew 7:1). And yes, it applies to everyone.
Wow. Talk about taking verses out of context. Wasn't Romans a letter written by Paul to a specific group of people? I read this as being about the hypocrisy of the leaders of which Paul has knowlege.
What do you think that the verse from Galatians means?
What do you think that the verse from Galatians means?
It means that no one will be justified by their works.
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasI can't understand how you got this from the above verses:
It is essentially the same message as Christ's, "Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Matthew 7:1). And yes, it applies to everyone.
[b]What do you think that the verse from Galatians means?
It means that no one will be justified by their works.[/b]
The word of God says you do the very things you accuse Christians of doing.
Romans is a specific warning against hypocrisy. Matthew is a general warning against hypocrisy.
How does the verse support the allegations you are making here:
Is the word of God correct in that assessment, or do you fulfill the law perfectly? If you do, then I will admit that you are in a legitimate position to judge others. But, of course, you do not: "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2:16).