Why Did Jesus Cleanse the Temple?

Originally posted by @secondson

God doesn't have a "firstborn son". God has an "only begotten son".

Why would you say this?
Romans 1:3,4 say Jesus was designated the Son of God in power by the resurrection.

Paul doesn't specify He was designated Son of God at His birth or baptism or transfiguration. He certainly doesn't negate those designations seen in the Gospels.

But his emphasis in this basic book on Christian tenets is that Christ was, at His resurrection, declared to be Son of God.

This completely agrees with Him being the "Firstborn [Son] from the dead" in resurrection. of Colossians 1:18.

Of all the sons that God will have in eternity, which one is the First, the Eldest Brother of all the brother sons ?

The obvious answer is Jesus.
So Jesus is the Firstborn Son.

"For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them BROTHERS." (Heb. 2:11)

How many are begotten if Jesus is the ONLY - begotten ?
Only one is begotten - Jesus.

How many are begotten if Jesus is the Firstborn Son with many brothers?
The Elder Brother Jesus is begotten and the many brothers whom He is in the process of sanctifying are begotten as well.

Secondson, do you believe that the prophecy of Zechariah 12:10 refers to Jesus Christ?

I do. And I notice that the phrase "firstborn son" is used to describe the preciousness of this slain and resurrected Messiah.

"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplications;

and they will look upon Me, whom they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him with wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son." (Zechariah 12:10)

If this prophecy relates to God becoming a man to be pierced and crucified then wouldn't the terms

"only son" mean Jesus Christ ?

"firstborn son" also mean Jesus Christ?

Originally posted by @secondson
Originally posted by @sonship
[b][b]"So "Firstborn among many brothers" (Rom. 8:29) does not refer to the Son ?"[/b]

Of course! But it isn't saying that Jesus is the "Firstborn Son". Jesus was the first to be resurrected never to die again, just as we will be at our resurrection. That's all that verse is saying. I will not read into it any ...[text shortened]... lmore

Look down at the bottom album Weapons of Righteousness[/b]

I'll check it out.[/b]

Again, the scriptures know nothing about a "Firstborn Son" in connection with Jesus. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. His identity did not change after His resurrection. Ours did.

The Scripture does use "firstborn son" in reference to the incarnated, pierced God man, who comes again in glory. See Zechariah 12:10.

This prophecy is referred to in Revelation 1:7 where we see the tribes of the Holy Land wail over seeing Christ coming in glory.

"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him [See Zechariah 12:10] ,

and all the tribes of the land will mourn over HIm. Yes, amen." [See Zechariah 12:10]

They will mourn over Him as they would for an only son and for a firstborn son.

The One coming in glory causing the tribes in the Holy Land to mourn is Jesus compared to "a firstborn son" .

Now in Hebrews 12:8 I didn't say since the resurrection Jesus changed. I said FROM that resurrection He changed (resurrection being the birth or changing status brought about) and that is the beginning of YESTERDAY.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday [from His resurrection] today, yes even forever."

That is what I explained.

Originally posted by @sonship
Secondson, do you believe that the prophecy of [b]Zechariah 12:10 refers to Jesus Christ?

I do. And I notice that the phrase "firstborn son" is used to describe the preciousness of this slain and resurrected Messiah.

[quote] "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of suppli ...[text shortened]...
[b]"only son" mean Jesus Christ ?

"firstborn son" also mean Jesus Christ?[/b]

I think that connection is a little tenuous. 'First born son' is found elsewhere in the Bible (and not in reference to Jesus) for example 1 Chronicles 9:36 'and his firstborn son was Abdon...' or Genesis 27, 'And he said, "I am your son, your firstborn, Esau."

Zechariah surely is just using 'firstborn son' as an analogy to symbolise the gravitas and severity of the loss?

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
I think that connection is a little tenuous. 'First born son' is found elsewhere in the Bible (and not in reference to Jesus) for example 1 Chronicles 9:36 'and his firstborn son was Abdon...' or Genesis 27, 'And he said, "I am your son, your firstborn, Esau."

Zechariah surely is just using 'firstborn son' as an analogy to symbolise the gravitas and severity of the loss?

I did not put forward the Zechariah passage as my first evidence but as supporting evidence. Therefore I think you should consider the previous remarks as the primary ones.

My time does not allow me to write much now. But the whole matter of the "firstborn" among the Israelites with his double portion of the blessing and somewhat extra degree of fortune, is significant to God's plan which focuses on His Son and His brothers sons.

Originally posted by @sonship
I did not put forward the Zechariah passage as my first evidence but as supporting evidence. Therefore I think you should consider the previous remarks as the primary ones.

My time does not allow me to write much now. But the whole matter of the [b]"firstborn" among the Israelites with his double portion of the blessing and somewhat extra degree of fortune, is significant to God's plan which focuses on His Son and His brothers sons.[/b]

I will go back and read your primary evidence.

Originally posted by @sonship
Secondson, do you believe that the prophecy of [b]Zechariah 12:10 refers to Jesus Christ?

I do. And I notice that the phrase "firstborn son" is used to describe the preciousness of this slain and resurrected Messiah.

[quote] "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of suppli ...[text shortened]...
[b]"only son" mean Jesus Christ ?

"firstborn son" also mean Jesus Christ?[/b]

Sonship, you keep putting firstborn son in quotation marks. There is no scriptural reference to support the inference you're making, i.e. that Jesus Christ is God's "firstborn son". Mary's firstborn son, yes, but not God's.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not questioning your sincerity or even your faith, but you seem to be projecting onto the text a meaning not specifically implied.

Perhaps we should lay this to rest and simply agree to disagree. After all, I am confident that you are "in the faith", and I detect no outright heresy, but I do think you're over spiritualizing the scriptures.

Peace brother.

Originally posted by @secondson

Don't get me wrong. I'm not questioning your sincerity or even your faith, but you seem to be projecting onto the text a meaning not specifically implied.

But its good to have the word of God also along with sincerity and faith.

Some of us praise Him that His will is to conform us to the image of His Firstborn Son that He might be "the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

it is interesting that it didn't say "Firstborn among many cousins" or "Firstborn among many nephews" or "Firstborn among many uncles" - but "many brothers".

What else could THE Son be but Firstborn since the brothers' destiny is to be many sons because of Him?

"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (Rev. 21:7)

Does anyone understand that Christ is the Progenitor of a new race of human beings?

If the first man Adam was called "son of God" (Luke 3:38). And Jesus Christ is called "the second man" (1 Cor. 15:47) then as much and much more the ressurrected Christ is the Progenitor of a new human race.

Adam heads the old fallen race.
Jesus Christ in resurrection heads the new race of people mingled with God.

When the New testament says that the Christians are "made alive" with Him, this making alive refers to His being resurrected from the dead.

"Even when we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ ..." (Eph. 2:10)

"And you, though dead in your offenses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our offenses." (Col. 2;13)

The believers enter into a new realm of humanity by being made alive through Christ's resurrection. He is a Progenitor of a new realm of humanity.

We should pray in faith -

"Lord Jesus, Your resurrection is absolutely my new beginning. You are my elder Brother. And I am made alive with You in Your resurrection to be included in what You are."

The Apostle Peter said the saved have been regenerated through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)

Jesus is Greek for Joshua. As the Firstborn from the dead Jesus is man's general like Joshua with an army leading the saved into the good land of the
God/man united in life.

Originally posted by @sonship
Does anyone understand that Christ is the Progenitor of a new race of human beings?

If the first man Adam was called "son of God" [b](Luke 3:38). And Jesus Christ is called "the second man" (1 Cor. 15:47) then as much and much more the ressurrected Christ is the Progenitor of a new human race.

Adam heads the old fallen race.
Jesus Chr ...[text shortened]... Joshua with an army leading the saved into the good land of the
God/man united in life.[/b]

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

A new "creature". ktisis. In Christ a man is a new creation. The old is passed away.

But here again I struggle with the notion that as a new creation we are "a new race" of human beings. In Christ we are a new creation, but in eternity humans will be of all races.

A "new race" I find not in the text.

You probably think I'm splitting hairs.

Originally posted by @secondson
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

A new "creature". ktisis. In Christ a man is a new creation. The old is passed away.



A "new race" I find not in the text.

You probably think I'm splitting hairs.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Marvelous! Tell me more!

A new "creature". ktisis. In Christ a man is a new creation. The old is passed away.

Praise the Lord Secondson. You won that argument. lol!

Curiously, might you be a poster in days gone by by the tag of something like checkbaiter ? Just curious.

But here again I struggle with the notion that as a new creation we are "a new race" of human beings.

"New creation " is quite communicative.

We also have "one new man".

If the phrase "new race" concerns I think you understand what I meant - "new creation' "new man".

Actually there are quite a few things "new" mentioned in relation to this entity the church.
"new and living way",
"New Jerusalem",
"newness of life",
"one new man", ...

God Himself is the evergreen, ever new One, ever fresh. He is ancient but not old.
Whatever God infuses with life is new, He never grows old and worn.

His mercies are fresh every morning.(Lamentations 3:22,23) .

But here again I struggle with the notion that as a new creation we are "a new race" of human beings. In Christ we are a new creation, but in eternity humans will be of all races.

You are probably referring to Revelation 22:24, 22:2 "the nations".

These are peoples on the new earth benefiting from the "one new man" of the New Jerusalem. These are blessed created people who are not sons of God but are transferred from previous ages into that age.

When the Bible says that the sons of God shall reign forever and ever, there has to be someone's over whom they reign. It doesn't mean that they reign over each other.

So not many Christians know this. But there will be nations both in the millennium and in the new heaven and new earth afterwards who are not in the "one new man" but are blessed by the presence of the the "one new man" - the church - and by her enlargement - "New Jerusalem" .

I do not understand everything about this.
But I have been convinced that the sons of God who reign forever and ever must have some ones besides each other over whom they may be reigning and being a blessing TO.

"And night will be no more; and they have no need of the light of a lamp and of the light of the sun, for the lord God will shine upon them; and they will reign forever and ever." (Rev. 22:21)

So now we might have two debates going.
1.) is Jesus the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection?
2.) Are there nations of races living in eternity who are not sons of God but are blessed by them?

Peace in Christ, Who has called us to Peace.

Originally posted by @sonship
Does anyone understand that Christ is the Progenitor of a new race of human beings?

If the first man Adam was called "son of God" [b](Luke 3:38). And Jesus Christ is called "the second man" (1 Cor. 15:47) then as much and much more the ressurrected Christ is the Progenitor of a new human race.

Adam heads the old fallen race.
Jesus Chr ...[text shortened]... Joshua with an army leading the saved into the good land of the
God/man united in life.[/b]

Jesus is Greek for Joshua. As the Firstborn from the dead Jesus is man's general like Joshua with an army leading the saved into the good land of the
God/man united in life.

Athanasius, sometimes called "the father of orthodoxy" understood well the coming of Christ. He came not on a one way trip but on a round trip bring back with Him others sharing in His mingling of God and man.

"God became a man so that man might become God."

I would clarify - God became man so that on His way back to the eternal throne He leads man to become God in life and nature, but not in the Godhead.

The non-communicable attributes of God remain His alone forever. But certain communicable attributes of God He bestows upon His many sons.

Hebrews is very good in showing Christ is the "Author" of salvation of "Captain" leading many sons in the the expression of man infused with the divine glory of God.

a few English renderings of Hebrews 2:10:

New International Version
In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

New Living Translation
God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.

English Standard Version
For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Berean Study Bible
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Berean Literal Bible
For it was fitting to Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, having brought many sons to glory, to make perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

King James Bible
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Christian Standard Bible
For in bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was entirely appropriate that God--for whom and through whom all things exist--should make the source of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Originally posted by @sonship

Athanasius, sometimes called "the father of orthodoxy" understood well the coming of Christ. He came not on a one way trip but on a round trip bring back with Him s exist--should make the source of their salvation perfect through sufferings. [/quote][/b]

Correction: I was bothered by not knowing if I had quoted
Athanasius accurately,

I found this: [my bolding]

Some final instances from Athanasius should be sufficient to provide an ample array of evidence that Psalm 82:6 and, by quotation, John 10:34 have long been used in the church to teach that man becomes God in God's salvation. It should be remembered that it was Athanasius who uttered the classic phrase that most succinctly captures the teaching of the church through his day: “He was made man that we might be made God” (De Incarnatione 54:3). Elsewhere in this same treatise Athanasius speaks of God's intention in creating man even though man fell short of that intention and uses Psalm 82:6 as evidence of that original intention.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2AEF471C46

Originally posted by @sonship

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Marvelous! Tell me more!

A new "creature". ktisis. In Christ a man is a new creation. The old is passed away.

Praise the Lord Secondson. You won that argument. lol!

Curiou ...[text shortened]... o are not sons of God but are blessed by them?

Peace in Christ, Who has called us to Peace.

1.) is Jesus the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection?

"Firstborn Son of God" does not appear in scripture. "Firstborn" is not a title, it's locative. Jesus is the first to be resurrected from the dead never to die again. Hence the verse that says "...that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

2.) Are there nations of races living in eternity who are not sons of God but are blessed by them?"

That notion has no basis in scripture. It is conjecture. The question is spurious; "races living in eternity who are not sons of God" is an extra-Biblical concept.

Originally posted by @sonship
Correction: I was bothered by not knowing if I had quoted
Athanasius accurately,

I found this: [my bolding]

Some final instances from Athanasius should be sufficient to provide an ample array of evidence that Psalm 82:6 and, by quotation, John 10:34 have long been used in the church to teach that man becomes God in God's salvation. It sho ...[text shortened]... riginal intention.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2AEF471C46

“He was made man that we might be made God”

Absurd.

Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34 are not a proof texts for that concept. That is an incorrect interpretation. Notice the lower case g in the word "gods."