Originally posted by avalanchethecatActually I have only read the Koran (partially) and The Gita (partially) and the Book of Mormon (partially). Also some Apocrypha. The Bible is superior to each one. The Koran is a very cold book with little insight into Gods personality, The Gita I didn't really understand and the book of Mormon is pure fiction. I agree though modern Christianity bears little resemblance to the Christianity practiced by the Christ, its unrecognizable. There are many reasons for this although I blame Calvinism with its neoplatonic hatred of matter. It has made Christianity so spiritual that its of little practical benefit.
It's funny how this vindictive self-righteous attitude has become so typical of christianity in the modern world. Perhaps they all need to read the miracle fish-food-guy story again?
Seriously though, you have obviously studied other ancient writings apart from the bible, you must realise that biblical scripture is not exceptional, right?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell it's good that it works for you. Me, I just don't see it. You know what, I kinda do love Jesus, I find the gospels very warm and I think he must have been a very special dude if they are truly inspired by a real person (which i tend to think they probably are although I'm hugely sceptical of the miraculous content). The rest? Seems like a forced fit to me. Always as I read I see men trying to control and influence other men, or at best, to educate them. I don't see any trace of a god that means anything to me. I honestly wish it was otherwise, but to me it just comes across as interesting quasi-historical source material.
Actually I have only read the Koran (partially) and The Gita (partially) and the Book of Mormon (partially). Also some Apocrypha. The Bible is superior to each one. The Koran is a very cold book with little insight into Gods personality, The Gita I didn't really understand and the book of Mormon is pure fiction. I agree though modern Christianity ...[text shortened]... c hatred of matter. It has made Christianity so spiritual that its of little practical benefit.
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14 Apr 17
Originally posted by robbie carrobie'Your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him, and do good to
Actually I have only read the Koran (partially) and The Gita (partially) and the Book of Mormon (partially). Also some Apocrypha. The Bible is superior to each one. The Koran is a very cold book with little insight into Gods personality, The Gita I didn't really understand and the book of Mormon is pure fiction. I agree though modern Christianity ...[text shortened]... c hatred of matter. It has made Christianity so spiritual that its of little practical benefit.
parents. If any one of them or both of them reach old age, do not say
to them even “uff”(even an exclamation of contempt) and do not scold
them, address them with respectful words. And submit yourself before
them in humility out of compassion, and say, “My Lord, be merciful to
them the way they cared for me during childhood” (17: Verse 23 & 24)
You find such passages from the Koran cold?
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeAs a whole yes I did find it cold, take for example this passage, its almost sterile. do this, do that, believe, do good etc
'Your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him, and do good to
parents. If any one of them or both of them reach old age, do not say
to them even “uff”(even an exclamation of contempt) and do not scold
them, address them with respectful words. And submit yourself before
them in humility out of compassion, and say, “My Lord, be merciful to
...[text shortened]... ared for me during childhood” (17: Verse 23 & 24)
You find such passages from the Koran cold?
Surah 29. The Spider
1. A.L.M.
2. Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?
3. We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false.
4. Do those who practise evil think that they will get the better of Us? Evil is their judgment!
5. For those whose hopes are in the meeting with Allah (in the Hereafter, let them strive); for the term (appointed) by Allah is surely coming and He hears and knows (all things).
6. And if any strive (with might and main), they do so for their own souls: for Allah is free of all needs from all creation.
7. Those who believe and work righteous deeds,- from them shall We blot out all evil (that may be) in them, and We shall reward them according to the best of their deeds.
8. We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to me, and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did.
9. And those who believe and work righteous deeds,- them shall We admit to the company of the Righteous.
10. Then there are among men such as say, "We believe in Allah.; but when they suffer affliction in (the cause of) Allah, they treat men's oppression as if it were the Wrath of Allah. And if help comes (to thee) from thy Lord, they are sure to say, "We have (always) been with you!" Does not Allah know best all that is in the hearts of all creation?
11. And Allah most certainly knows those who believe, and as certainly those who are Hypocrites.
12. And the Unbelievers say to those who believe: "Follow our path, and we will bear (the consequences) of your faults." Never in the least will they bear their faults: in fact they are liars!
13. They will bear their own burdens, and (other) burdens along with their own, and on the Day of Judgments they will be called to account for their falsehoods.
14. We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin.
15. But We saved him and the companions of the Ark, and We made the (Ark) a Sign for all peoples!
16. And (We also saved) Abraham: behold, he said to his people, "Serve Allah and fear Him: that will be best for you- If ye understand!
It could almost have been written by RajK, compare it to a book like the Acts of the Apostles with and its almost barren.
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15 Apr 17
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSure, but there are books of the bible that could also be described as sterile or laborious.
As a whole yes I did find it cold, take for example this passage, its almost sterile. do this, do that, believe, do good etc
Surah 29. The Spider
1. A.L.M.
2. Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?
3. We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are t ...[text shortened]... written by RajK, compare it to a book like the Acts of the Apostles with and its almost barren.
(Leviticus, cough cough, Leviticus).
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15 Apr 17
2 edits
Originally posted by avalanchethecatChrist took the story of Jonah as history. I trust Him that it was for His integrity is beyond questioning.
I appreciate that you have attempted to not be patronising when you constructed this reply, but I am sorry to have to inform you that you have failed in this endeavour.
All that aside, are you really telling me that you can [b]believe a story from a single source which involves a man being eaten by some sort of ocean creature, and three days l ...[text shortened]... d a pile of grade A fertilizer or misidentified a rather convoluted and well-disguised metaphor.[/b]
I know He took it as history because He said that the men of Nineveh would arise at the judgment with the generation that was there with Jesus.
" Ninevite men will stand up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something more than Jonah is here." (Luke 11:32)
It makes no sense that Jesus would say that metaphorical and fictitious people would appear on judgment day with real historical people. Jesus Christ took Jonah and the details of his preaching then, for history.
Your attempt to relegate Jonah to pure allegorical fiction fails, though metaphor is no doubt intended also under God's providence. .
15 Apr 17
Originally posted by sonshipSo you have abandoned reason in favour of faith not in your god or Jesus, but in scripture. Scripture crafted and collected by men, whose motives you can only guess at. If your god exists, he has endowed you with that ability to reason for a purpose, yet you are steadfast in denial of it's value.
Christ took the story of Jonah as history. I trust Him that it was for His integrity is beyond questioning.
I know He took it as history because He said that the men of Nineveh would arise at the judgment with the generation that was there with Jesus.
[quote] [b] " Ninevite men will stand up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, ...[text shortened]... e allegorical fiction fails, though metaphor is no doubt intended also under God's providence. .
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15 Apr 17
3 edits
Originally posted by avalanchethecatFaith in God does not "abandon" reason at all.
So you have abandoned reason in favour of faith not in your god or Jesus, but in scripture. Scripture crafted and collected by men, whose motives you can only guess at. If your god exists, he has endowed you with that ability to reason for a purpose, yet you are steadfast in denial of it's value.
Faith in God and His word includes the power and personality of God in its reasoning process.
Proper reasoning about the nature of reality in this case must include God in arriving at rational conclusions.
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15 Apr 17
Abandon God as possibility and explain where everything ultimately came from.
I find not good answer for this apart from the uncreated God.
If anything exists then something must have existed eternally.
A willing, all wise and all powerful Creator is a reasonable answer.
And that such a God would find it appropriate to demonstrate His character, communicating it in terms of things which we cannot do, makes sense.
Any unusual event of God's doing in the Bible is matched by His ability to cause that which is not to be.
God appointing a special fish to swallow Jonah corresponds to God calling for the universe into existence willfully from nothing. There is no abandoning of reason to believe this.
15 Apr 17
Originally posted by sonshipFaith in God does not "abandon" reason at all.
Faith in God does not "abandon" reason at all.
Faith in God and His word includes the power and personality of God in its reasoning process.
Proper reasoning about the nature of reality in this case must include God in arriving at rational conclusions.
C'mon jaywill. Really think about what you wrote here. "Faith in God" has "faith" as its foundation rather than "reason". The very word "faith" is contained in the phrase. That said, does it really make sense to try to convince people otherwise?
ATC is correct in pointing out that your faith is based in your faith in scripture - rather than in God or Jesus. And ultimately it is based on YOUR INTERPRETATON of scripture - rather than scripture in and of itself. It is what it is.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatHonestly read Acts of the Apostles. Christianity is loathed everywhere! Paul is ambushed, beaten up, betrayed by false brothers, shipwrecked, imprisoned and sent to Rome, he appears before Kings and Roman district rulers, he is dragged outside a city and left for dead, he is thought by the Greeks to be a god, other Greeks think him nothing more than a chatterer, he is faced with apostates, hunger and abundance, hauled before city magistrates, everywhere he goes he causes a riot! its an utterly fascinating account of the infancy of Christianity and reads more like a fast moving novel than a religious text. I agree though, the Christ is special.
Well it's good that it works for you. Me, I just don't see it. You know what, I kinda do love Jesus, I find the gospels very warm and I think he must have been a very special dude if they are truly inspired by a real person (which i tend to think they probably are although I'm hugely sceptical of the miraculous content). The rest? Seems like a forced ...[text shortened]... t was otherwise, but to me it just comes across as interesting quasi-historical source material.
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15 Apr 17
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThen you understand your weakness sir in saying you have read the Koran 'partially' and then comparing it unfavourably to a religious book you have read thoroughly?
I know pure torture!
What if a Muslim claimed to have read the bible 'partially' which in actuality meant he had only read the book of Leviticus, and then went on to generalise from it that the bible was sterile compared to the Koran? Would that be fair?
15 Apr 17
Originally posted by sonshipLoath as I am to repeat myself, you are not talking about faith in your god, you're talking about faith in scripture which was written by men.
Faith in God does not "abandon" reason at all.
Faith in God and His word includes the power and personality of God in its reasoning process.
Proper reasoning about the nature of reality in this case must include God in arriving at rational conclusions.
15 Apr 17
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYeah, I agree it's got some great stories in it. I don't see how that supports your position though.
Honestly read Acts of the Apostles. Christianity is loathed everywhere! Paul is ambushed, beaten up, betrayed by false brothers, shipwrecked, imprisoned and sent to Rome, he appears before Kings and Roman district rulers, he is dragged outside a city and left for dead, he is thought by the Greeks to be a god, other Greeks think him nothing more than ...[text shortened]... ads more like a fast moving novel than a religious text. I agree though, the Christ is special.