Originally posted by jaywillno, Jaywill, i do not want to bind anyone up and deliver them up to be stoned. i said at the very outset this is a matter of controversy among Christians, but i am clear in my own mind, and that's all it amounts to, my mind. Nor did i state that i could dictate to others to whom they wanted to pray, i merely stated that to me it was clearly erroneous based on my understanding, this as you know has its basis in that to me, Christ is not the Father, but the son, and was a created entity, having a pre-human existence along with the father, the master worker of proverbs chapter eight. and as colossians also clearly indicates.
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talk of straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel! shame on you Jaywill, for i have consistently defended the faith to the best of my knowledge and understanding! there is simply no indication that the references you gave pointed to prayers or anything of the sort, further if you note, Stephen saw two individuals, God eding for His people to the Father. The two are distinct. The two are not separate.[/b]
i understand that you have different views, based on your understanding, that is ok, but i have never once accused others of persecuting the Christ, nor his followers because of my difference.
to you the Word is God, to me the word is a god, or a divine being, you profess the trinity, to me its of a pre christian pagan origin, you believe in hell fire and in eternal punishment, i in a cutting off, punishment of eternal separation from the face of God, non existence, you say that it is fine to address prayers to the Christ, i feel that the most High, God Almighty is the hearer of prayer etc etc. these are all based on our understanding and our evaluation of scripture, but knowledge is not the identifying mark of true Christianity, is it?
no for what did the Christ state, 'you will know you are my disciples, if you have, knowledge among yourselves?? as you are quite aware Jaywill it was, love among yourselves, is it not awesome? John 13:34 🙂
Originally posted by Bad wolfperhaps you can name any other fictional character who has influenced humanity to such a profound and extensive degree??? perhaps if you have a mind, you could reflect on this statement from a respected historian, Will Durant :
Jesus is my favourite fictional character.
“That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”
digg, yall!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt is very awesome. And I did not mean to imply that you wanted to stone anyone.
no, Jaywill, i do not want to bind anyone up and deliver them up to be stoned. i said at the very outset this is a matter of controversy among Christians, but i am clear in my own mind, and that's all it amounts to, my mind. Nor did i state that i could dictate to others to whom they wanted to pray, i merely stated that to me it was clearly erroneo ...[text shortened]... as you are quite aware Jaywill it was, love among yourselves, is it not awesome? John 13:34 🙂
How do you know that "Firstborn of all creation" in Colossians means the pre-incarnated Logos was the first creation of God?
Just for discussion's sake.
Originally posted by jaywillsure thing Jaywill, wait till tomorrow, its 1 am in Glasgow and Ive been reading about the development of chess principles and ideas all night and my brain is now at critical meltdown stage 🙂
It is very awesome. And I did not mean to imply that you wanted to stone anyone.
How do you know that [b]"Firstborn of all creation" in Colossians means the pre-incarnated Logos was the first creation of God?
Just for discussion's sake.[/b]
I'll post. Arius taught that Colossians 1:15 proved that Christ was the first creature created by God. Here is the passage:
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, because in Him all things were created, ..." (Col. 1:15)
The question becomes - Does Paul mean by Firstborn that in TIME Christ was created before anything ELSE was created?
Here are some of my reasons for believing Paul did NOT mean this. Then I will discribe what I think the passage means.
First off Paul uses Firstborn twice in Colossians chapter two.
1.) Christ is "the Firstborn of all creation" (v.15)
2.) Christ is "Firstborn from the dead" (v.18)
If the Apostle Paul meant that Firstborn meant in TIME, sequence wise, the FIRST, then he should have meant so in BOTH verses 15 and 18.
Was Jesus Christ, TIMEWISE, the FIRST person that was raised from the dead? No He was not. Before Jesus came back from the dead Lazarus was brought back from the dead (John 11). And before Lazarus a few people in the Old Testament were brought back from the dead. See Elijah the prophet raising the widow's son (1 Kings 17:17-24) See also Elisha the prophet resurrecting a child (2 Kings 4:18-37).
According to time then Christ was not the FIRST to be raised. Yet Paul says that Christ is "the Firstborn from the dead". It must not mean that in time Christ was chronologically raised first.
By the same token Christ being "the Firstborn of all creation" does not insist that He was the first created being anymore than Firstborn from the dead insists that Christ was chronologically first to rise from the dead.
The dual use of the word Firstborn by Paul we would expect to be used in the same way. Now here is an alternative way to understand "Firstborn of all creation" which I find more suitable.
Christ incarnated and put on flesh and blood. He became a man. MAN is without question a creation of God. Genesis tells us that "God created man". There is no way for any Christian to deny that MAN is an item of God's CREATION.
So in being incarnated Christ became a part of God's creation. Now in ALL of God's creation, and among ALL things created by God, Christ has the topmost position. He is the most preeminent, most important, even the one for whom all creation is and through whom creation came into being. So Firstborn of all creation means His preeminent position in all creation.
The Word Who was with God and was God became flesh - a created item in God's universe. Nothing was more preeminent in the universe besides this incarnated God man. He is the Firstborn of all creation.
After Paul tells us that Christ is Firstborn of all creation in verse 15 and "Firstborn from the dead" in verse 18, he concludes by saying - "that He [Christ] might have the first place in all things." (v. 18).
The old creation is the first created creation. There Christ is the Firstborn of all creation through His incarnation. The new creation is the creation that follows and is headed by resurrection. There Christ is also the Firstborn from the dead. In both sphere then Christ has the preeiminence.
I submit that Arius was wrong to use Colossians 1:15 to prove that Christ is not God incarnated but only the first being created by God.
Rather Christ is God Himself incarnated as a man. It is very mysterious. But we all can experience the man Jesus Christ as God to us. And here is an example where Paul discribes this:
"But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet, if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:9-11)
[/b]
Interchangeably used are these terms -
The Spirit of God
The Spirit of Christ
Christ
The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead
as the indwelling Triune God.
And Jesus said that He and His Father, both, would come into His believers as the Divine "WE" and make an abode with those who love Jesus Christ:
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
Through the Holy Spirit, the Third of the Triune God, the Second and the First, the Son and the Father, as the Divine "WE" come to indwell the lover of Jesus. And this agrees with what Paul discribes in Romans 8:9-11.
The non-incomplete deity of Jesus Christ is upheld. The denial of the deity of Jesus Christ is refuted.
Intriguing...
I am suprised by the evident scholarly quality of what seems to be a rather hostile discussion; I find this suprising because, to my knowledge, none of the chosen apostles were educated, and indeed the new testament texts seem to portray the rabbis and priests and educated peoples in general, as the bad guys.
Am I to think then that this man Jesus can only be known by the letter?
Is knowledge of Jesus subject to knowledge of the bible?
Surely it is rather demeaning to this man if he, being agreed to be associated with the divine, can only be known by a book?
What is the difference 'twixt this and his being a fictional character, since fictional characters are known in the same fashion?
How am I to reconcile his kingship with his socialism?
How ought I to respond to the proposition that 'the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life'?
Perhaps what I meant to ask was,
Is Jesus still alive today? (the biblical record would have me think so)
And if so, in what manner?
What form does the individual's relationship with Jesus take?
Originally posted by 3SamuelI am suprised by the evident scholarly quality of what seems to be a rather hostile discussion,
Intriguing...
I am suprised by the evident scholarly quality of what seems to be a rather hostile discussion; I find this suprising because, to my knowledge, none of the chosen apostles were educated, and indeed the new testament texts seem to portray the rabbis and priests and educated peoples in general, as the bad guys.
Am I to think then that this ma ...[text shortened]... )
And if so, in what manner?
What form does the individual's relationship with Jesus take?
Lol, my dear sir, this is the spirituality forum, one wrong move and your toast! 🙂
Originally posted by 3SamuelThis is not a hostile exchange between Robbie and me.
Intriguing...
I am suprised by the evident scholarly quality of what seems to be a rather hostile discussion; I find this suprising because, to my knowledge, none of the chosen apostles were educated, and indeed the new testament texts seem to portray the rabbis and priests and educated peoples in general, as the bad guys.
Am I to think then that this ma )
And if so, in what manner?
What form does the individual's relationship with Jesus take?
It may be that Peter and John were not known for being particularly educated as fishermen. I would think that Matthew, the tax collector may have been more educated. And Luke was a physician so he probably was educated.
Paul who wrote 13 of the 27 New Testament books was a scholar. What these men had was experience. Don't underestimate that.
Also Nicodemus and Gameliel were educated and portrayed as either honest seekers of the truth or at least objective enough not to get caught up in a anti-Jesus frenzy.
Now I would like to draw your attention to the 40 or so days after the resurrection of Jesus. The gospels show that He appeared to the disciples and vanished from their sight. Then He appeared again and so forth. It also says that during these 40 days before He publically ascended supernaturally in a cloud, He taught them concerning the kingdom of God.
Here's what's impportant. Jesus trained His early disciples during that time that His relationship with them had undergone a change. Though they could not always SEE Him, He was still with them. By appearing and then vanishing from them over a period of 40 days, He trained His disciples to live by His invisible PRESENCE.
Now ahould remember His long discourse in John chapters 14 through 16 about the coming of the Holy Spirit as "Another Comforter" or "the Spirit of reality" or "the Spirit of truth". This teaching, plus His appearing after His resurrection to "breath" into the disciples the Holy Spirit (see John 20), AND His training of them over a period of 40 days were essential.
These matters were the foundation of the Christian church. Jesus, though we cannot see Him, is with us "even unto the consummation of the age" (See Last verse in Matthew).
Jesus trained and taught the first apostles to LIVE by His invisible presence. He had imparted His Spirit INTO them. He indwelt them as Paul confirms in all of his epistles. He was their spiritual life within. He was in their midst in a divine and mystical way. They became so convinced that they laid the strong foundation for those who were to experience the resurrected Jesus after them.
Lastly, please consider this cricual verse 1 Cor. 15:45 " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit."
Christ Jesus, the "last Adam" transfigured Himself into a form in which He imparts divine life into His believers. He became a life giving Spirit. So Jesus is at one time at the right hand of God somewhere in the heavens (Rom. 8:34) AND He is also indwelling the Christians seeking to be their life (Romans 8:9-11).
Jesus BECAME a Divine life giving, life imparting, life dispensing Spirit. That is how we can know Him today before His physical return to the physical surface of this earth.
Does this help?
The question was what form does the relationship with Jesus take today ?
First the relationship begins with receiving the life giving Spirit. That is Jesus Himself. The last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit.
With the entrance into our spiritual being of Chist the life giving Spirit comes redemption, cleansing in His precious blood, reconciliation to God. The enmity between the sinner and God is dealt with. We are forgiven and fellowship and communion with God - with Christ is possible.
This relationship commences with regeneration. That is to be born again. Born again is not an end in itself. Born again is for Grow again. Birth is not the climax of human life. It is the beginning of life so to speak. Born again is the beginning of a new life in oneness with Christ.
This oneness is a mingling of the Spirit the resurrected Christ with the human spirit. The two become one united and mingled spirit - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
This means that deep within the human being, deep within her spiritual being, the Spirit, the life giving ZOE which is Christt becomes "organically" joined to the human spirit. One part of your being actually becomes Christ.
One part of your being actually becomes God. I said that "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17). One part, the deepest kernel, the innermost nucleus of the human being becomes joined to Christ as "one spirit".
In essence Christ becomes YOU and YOU become Christ, At least one deep part of you is joined to the Lord.
Paul's final word to Timothy in the New Testament "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22 (?)
The relationship is Christ living in you. The relationship is Christ working Himself into your personality. The relationship is Christ longing for you to turn your whole inner being, chamber by chamber over to Him that He may make His home in your heart through faith.
The greatest skill on earth and the most skillful "art" is that of turning one's soul over, gradually, to the infusion of Jesus Christ into their personality.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat's kind of funny Robbie - "one wrong move and you're toast."
I am suprised by the evident scholarly quality of what seems to be a rather hostile discussion,
Lol, my dear sir, this is the spirituality forum, one wrong move and your toast! 🙂
That bad eh?
Originally posted by 3Samuel===========================
Yes, this is closer to that for which I am looking.
But how does this affect YOU?
I am quite familiar the theology - I have the books, it is online. I am not searching for this.
How does this Jesus affect you?
Yes, this is closer to that for which I am looking.
But how does this affect YOU?
I am quite familiar the theology - I have the books, it is online. I am not searching for this.
How does this Jesus affect you?
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Christ has a transformational effect on my life. This transformation has freed me from many things from which I could not be free without Him.
This Christ has a building effect. He "builds" me up with othe Christians with whom I could not be in one accord with if left to myself.
This Christ inclines my entire being to God and God's interests. In myself I have no interest in these things.
This is a life long process. It takes years of growth spiritually. And the more you grow it seems the you realize the farther you have to go. I have in no sense been fully matured. I still need many things dealt with in my being.
Some things I am still in controversy with God about. Some areas in my life are difficult to relinquidh up to His transformation. But I continually fellowship with others who are further along. That helps a great deal.
I have seen Christ overcome old inclinations and sins in my life. I have seen Him over time simply sanctify me and build me up into His body the New Testament church.