Originally posted by twhitehead
That would be up to the individual.
[b]Do we know that the universe exists without a cause?
No, we don't.
... because we know that nothing that happens, in relation to matter and energy, which as far as we know, as far as I know happens without a cause.
Well then, you have been sadly misinformed. There is no good scientific reason to t ...[text shortened]... verse isn't actually evidence for God as you previously thought - at least not by that argument.[/b]
Originally posted by josephw
"Are we to believe the universe exists without a cause"?
twhitehead
"That would be up to the individual."
Believing is up to the individual, but knowing is another matter. In my question above "are we to believe" is used as a phrase to question the validity of a matter, such as "believing" the universe exists without a cause.
josephw
"Do we know that the universe exists without a cause"?
twhitehead
"No, we don't."
And neither do we know that is does? Then all bets are off! The entire debate is moot. It seems that all that's left is for me to prove the universe was created. 🙂 Just more fun for me. lol
josephw
"... because we know that nothing that happens, in relation to matter and energy, which as far as we know, as far as I know happens without a cause."
twhitehead
"Well then, you have been sadly misinformed. There is no good scientific reason to think that everything that happens does so in a causal manner. In fact there are fairly good reasons to think that many of them do not."
In other words, science is out of its field when it comes to matters beyond its grasp, such as the origin of all that exists. Just proves my point don't you think?
josephw
"And, if it is true that nothing happens, in relation to the stuff the universe is made of, without a cause, then there had to be a first cause,"
twhitehead
"But that first cause, does not have to be the creation of the universe. The universe could have come into existence without a cause, and then causation started after that."
But you don't know any of that for certain because you are merely theorizing possibilities without a shread of evidence in spite of the fact that the evidence is the entire universe for the truth of its existence, which is it was created.
Exasperating is it not? 😕
josephw
"...but if one believes that the universe has always existed, then they have a big problem ever trying to prove that. To accept that idea is truly by blind faith."
twhitehead
"But one doesn't need to prove it or even believe it happened for it to remain a possibility."
True, but then we're no further ahead in our understanding by remaining in the dark about the "possibility" that the universe was created.
josephw
"By the way, what is the cause of making the statement that atheist believe the universe came into existence without a cause"?
twhitehead
"I didn't make it, and disputed it."
I saw that.
twhitehead
"So in sum, your argument has a number of glaring logical flaws as well as some false assumptions.
So, now you know that the universe isn't actually evidence for God as you previously thought - at least not by that argument."
Not so fast amigo, I'm not done yet! 😉